Anthem AVM 50V Preamp/Processor Replacement Recommendation

[Bernito]

I am looking to replace my Anthem AVM 50V Preamp/Processor which is currently paired with an Anthem PVA 7, Magnepan MG1.6/QRs, MGCC2s, and an MGMC1, a SVS SB-3000 sub, and a JVC DLA RS-1100. My inputs are an Apple TV 4K, a Denon HEOS Link HS2, and a PS5. I want 4k @ 120fps and equivalent or better SINAD than the excellent Burr Brown OPA-2134 implementation in my AVM 50v. I bi-amp the MG1.6/QRs and do not need/want more than my existing 5.1 channels given my room specifics and difficulty integrating additional channels with my beloved Maggies.

The Anthem AVM 70 is beyond my budget, so I am considering a ToneWinner AT-500 or AT-600, Denon AVR-X3800H or AVR-X4700HBKE3, Marantz Cinema-70S, or the Yamaha RX-A4A since they have full preamp outputs so I can still use my Anthem PVA 7.

There is very little good information about the performance and quality of the ToneWinner products, but they look intriguing. I understand the feature differences between the Denons and would appreciate feedback on the sonic and build quality differences between them since they are different product generations. Finally, I know that Marantz is made by the same company and that the Cinema-70S has received negative reviews, but I do not know whether the issue is with the av processing which I care about or the power amplifier stage which I will not use.

Thank you in advance for your input.

 

[Vincentponcet]

If you have an external amp, the biggest sound difference will be the room correction. Denon x3800h provides dirac art. It is a pity that their DAC choice has been so bad. It is a better implementation in x4800h, and expectedly a step up on x6800h, but not measured yet.

 

[Bernito]

If you have an external amp, the biggest sound difference will be the room correction. Denon x3800h provides dirac art. It is a pity that their DAC choice has been so bad. It is a better implementation in x4800h, and expectedly a step up on x6800h, but not measured yet.

My Anthem has Burr Brown OPA-2134s (it was an AVM 20 upgraded to twice to become an AVM 50v). Do you know if ToneWinner or Yamaha uses better DACs than Denon/Marantz?

 

[Vincentponcet]

My Anthem has Burr Brown OPA-2134s (it was an AVM 20 upgraded to twice to become an AVM 50v). Do you know if ToneWinner or Yamaha uses better DACs than Denon/Marantz?

The question is more the implementation and the measurements.x4800h has a better implementation providing 7db better Sinad than x3800h with the same chips , x6800h have better dac chips, ess9017s. In all cases, probably not audible.
Note that avm60 have been tested at a 90db, so just 3db more than x3800h and 5 less than x4800

 

[peng]

The question is more the implementation and the measurements.x4800h has a better implementation providing 7db better Sinad than x3800h with the same chips , x6800h have better dac chips, ess9017s. In all cases, probably not audible.
Note that avm60 have been tested at a 90db, so just 3db more than x3800h and 5 less than x4800

It may look like that but I doubt it is a case of implementation. The lesser performance of the 3800 on the bench could have been an outlier case, for whatever reasons. The fact is, the X3600, X33700, through X4700H, X6700H all performed equally well, virtually the same on the ASR test bench. As to implementation, published information shows they are virtually the same as well. I wouldn't hesitate choosing the 3800 over the 4800 if I needed one at the moment, but I don't.

 

[peng]

My Anthem has Burr Brown OPA-2134s (it was an AVM 20 upgraded to twice to become an AVM 50v). Do you know if ToneWinner or Yamaha uses better DACs than Denon/Marantz?

Can't answer the question without knowing the specific models. Different models of the same brand may or may not use the same DAC chip. Example: lower to midrange Yamaha models may have the ES9006, but the higher model may have the ES9026Pro, big difference.

 

[Bernito]

It may look like that but I doubt it is a case of implementation. The lesser performance of the 3800 on the bench could have been an outlier case, for whatever reasons. The fact is, the X3600, X33700, through X4700H, X6700H all performed equally well, virtually the same on the ASR test bench. As to implementation, published information shows they are virtually the same as well. I wouldn't hesitate choosing the 3800 over the 4800 if I needed one at the moment, but I don't.

Maggies are highly sensitive to SINAD so I am definitely concerned about the Denon AVR-X3800H's bench tests. I wish I could find bench tests for the ToneWinner AT-500 since it seems like a perfect fit for my needs. Unfortunately there is virtually no information out there on it.

 

[Intamin]

Maggies are highly sensitive to SINAD so I am definitely concerned about the Denon AVR-X3800H's bench tests. I wish I could find bench tests for the ToneWinner AT-500 since it seems like a perfect fit for my needs. Unfortunately there is virtually no information out there on it.

Probably worth double checking, but per Gemini:

The ToneWinner AT-500 AV processor uses the Cirrus Logic CS42528 DAC chip.

While some other high-end ToneWinner Hi-Fi components (like the AD-1PRE+) use ESS Sabre chips, the AT-500 relies on the Cirrus Logic architecture to handle its 16-channel decoding and high-resolution audio processing.

Key Audio Specs​

• DAC Chip: Cirrus Logic CS42528
• DSP: Dual-core processor from Analog Devices (ADI)
• Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR): $\ge 110\text{dB}$ (A-weighted)
• Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): $\le 0.004\%$
• Frequency Response: $10\text{Hz} – 65\text{kHz}$

 

[Vincentponcet]

It may look like that but I doubt it is a case of implementation. The lesser performance of the 3800 on the bench could have been an outlier case, for whatever reasons. The fact is, the X3600, X33700, through X4700H, X6700H all performed equally well, virtually the same on the ASR test bench. As to implementation, published information shows they are virtually the same as well. I wouldn't hesitate choosing the 3800 over the 4800 if I needed one at the moment, but I don't.

After the akm factory fire, Denon moved from AVN4458 to TI1502A, a way lower performing chip on paper.
The x3800h Sinad is consistent with that.

 

[Vincentponcet]

Probably worth double checking, but per Gemini:

The ToneWinner AT-500 AV processor uses the Cirrus Logic CS42528 DAC chip.

While some other high-end ToneWinner Hi-Fi components (like the AD-1PRE+) use ESS Sabre chips, the AT-500 relies on the Cirrus Logic architecture to handle its 16-channel decoding and high-resolution audio processing.

Key Audio Specs​

• DAC Chip: Cirrus Logic CS42528
• DSP: Dual-core processor from Analog Devices (ADI)
• Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR): $\ge 110\text{dB}$ (A-weighted)
• Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): $\le 0.004\%$
• Frequency Response: $10\text{Hz} – 65\text{kHz}$

The tonewinner has no decent room correction.
Also the dac chip datasheet numbers rarely translate into machine sinad.
Without a test, we don't know.

 

[Bernito]

The tonewinner has no decent room correction.
Also the dac chip datasheet numbers rarely translate into machine sinad.
Without a test, we don't know.

I understand that the forthcoming ToneWinner AT-600 has Dirac Live, so that could be a good option depending on its release price and bench test results.

 

[peng]

After the akm factory fire, Denon moved from AVN4458 to TI1502A, a way lower performing chip on paper.
The x3800h Sinad is consistent with that.

Of course the TI chip has poorer SINAD than the AKM one but note that the 3800 and 4800, Cinema 50 and 40 all use the same PCM5102A chip. Please be more accurate, too much incorrect info out there already,

As I tried to explain, there might have been other reasons for the poorer bench performance of the x3800h. Regardless, even based on that review/measurement, the 3800 still measured a little better overall than the AVM60. Don’t rely on a single point SINAD.

 

[Vincentponcet]

Of course the TI chip has poorer SINAD than the AKM one but note that the 3800 and 4800, Cinema 50 and 40 all use the same PCM5102A chip. Please be more accurate, too much incorrect info out there already,

As I tried to explain, there might have been other reasons for the poorer bench performance of the x3800h. Regardless, even based on that review/measurement, the 3800 still measured a little better overall than the AVM60. Don’t rely on a single point SINAD.

The TI PCM1502A chip has a THD of -93dB. You might not remember that it was a drama on multiple forums when this was discovered. Even for the x3700h, there are been a silent V2 with that TI chip.

https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/pcm5102a

That's a significant downgrade from the -107dB of THD+N of the AKM AK4458VN.

AK4458VN | Audio D/A Converters | Audio Components | Products | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)

115dB 768kHz / 32-bit 8 ch Premium DAC The AK4458VN is a new generation of premium 32-bit DAC, with 8 channels of AKM’s VELVET SOUND architecture that has been widely adopted by well-established high-end audio companies.

www.akm.com

So the 87dB sinad of the x3800h is consistent with that.

For the 4800h, they probably bypassed the frontend of the chip, as they claim to have a digital signal processing al32 / ddsc hd. Also someone here suggested that the chip has a bad thd at -3dBfs, so probably they shifted in the digital domain and have a higher gain in the output stage.

 

[peng]

The TI PCM1502A chip has a THD of -93dB. You might not remember that it was a drama on multiple forums when this was discovered. Even for the x3700h, there are been a silent V2 with that TI chip.

https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/pcm5102a

That's a significant downgrade from the -107dB of THD+N of the AKM AK4458VN.

AK4458VN | Audio D/A Converters | Audio Components | Products | Asahi Kasei Microdevices (AKM)

115dB 768kHz / 32-bit 8 ch Premium DAC The AK4458VN is a new generation of premium 32-bit DAC, with 8 channels of AKM’s VELVET SOUND architecture that has been widely adopted by well-established high-end audio companies.

www.akm.com

So the 87dB sinad of the x3800h is consistent with that.

For the 4800h, they probably bypassed the frontend of the chip, as they claim to have a digital signal processing al32 / ddsc hd. Also someone here suggested that the chip has a bad thd at -3dBfs, so probably they shifted in the digital domain and have a higher gain in the output stage.

Sorry, no, please do your research. Have you seen their signal flow diagrams and/schematics? I have..

You are right about the TI chip’s spec, that’s published info that I and others posted on ASR before, it is commom knowledge.

AL32,has nothing to do with this, Marantz C40 also did better than 93 dB SINAD. D+M has done a good job implementing the PCM5102A for sure, I posted some of my thoughts on this before but it is all speculative. What is not speculative but fact based is that they all use the same dac chips and opamp chips, and share the same signal flow diagrams and schematics. The 4800 is a better device for other reasons.

 

[Vincentponcet]

Sorry, no, please do your research. Have you seen their signal flow diagrams and/schematics? I have..

You are right about the TI chip’s spec, that’s published info that I and others posted on ASR before, it is commom knowledge.

AL32,has nothing to do with this, Marantz C40 also did better than 93 dB SINAD. D+M has done a good job implementing the PCM5102A for sure, I posted some of my thoughts on this before but it is all speculative. What is not speculative but fact based is that they all use the same dac chips and opamp chips, and share the same signal flow diagrams and schematics. The 4800 is a better device for other reasons.

From the board pictures , it doesn't look like x3800h and x4800h have the same dac section.

X3800h dac section

Denon AVR-X3800H 評測：音質與空間感全面進化，還能接4支超低音喇叭

老讀友們看我評鑑中價位或平價環繞擴大機，可能已經猜到「有怪事發生」。沒錯！我評環繞擴大機近30年，AVR-X3800H是我遇到的第一部9.4聲道環繞擴大機，其中「.4」是前級輸出有「能獨立處理控制」的4個超低音聲道，可分別設定距離、調整Level，能輸出相同的超低音信號、或者以超低音喇叭裝設的位置負責所在區域（不同方向） ...

www.audionet.com.tw

X4800h dac section

https://www.avsforum.com/posts/62272961/

The x4800h one seems to have more capacitors around the dac chips and volume control chips than x3800h