Another Vinyl vs. Source Comparison

[JP]

There have been a couple threads the past months of vinyl vs. CD type comparisons. I thought it'd be interesting to kick things up a notch or two.

I thought it'd be fun to compare a first-play needle-drop of a lacquer with the actual source that was sent to the lathe. We could do one lacquer with minimal processing (no low pass, no delay, etc.) and another of the same material processed as an actual production cut would be. I've a couple technical tracks I want for my own purposes, but thought we could do a handful of ~60 second samples on the first half of a side, and then duplicated on the second half to measure the affect of reduced groove radius.

I've a few associates who cut for a living, and one as already agreed to do the cuts for me. So, I'm in need of some ideas for good music test tracks. The noise floor of these tracks will need to be a bit above that of the lacquer and playback, so something that was recorded on tape where we don't have to raise the noise floor artificially would be preferred. I'd like to get 6 tracks for this.

Ultimately we'll have the source file, the feedback monitor, and a needle-drop to compare. I'll likely do the needle drop with a V15VMR as it's the flatest reliable cartridge I have.

Secondarily, as there are more companies producing and selling limited edition lacquers, I thought I'd do some degradation tests of repeat plays.

Anyone interested?

 

[dlaloum]

What vinyl cleaning / treatment / handling regime are we talking about?

The V15VMR is a good choice - one of the most neutral ever. - What is the TT/Arm?

And are we assuming an original V15VMR needle in good nick, or a 3rd party replacement? - if it is non original, then complete custom loading is required to get the cartridge back to neutral (or as close as possible)... my ones are running SAS needles - but the original beryllium tube cantilevered needles are superior (and made of pure unobtainium now!)

 

[JP]

What vinyl cleaning / treatment / handling regime are we talking about?

They'll be lacquers. Blowing dust off with compressed air is about all you can do without risking damage.

The V15VMR is a good choice - one of the most neutral ever. - What is the TT/Arm?

Playback will be Technics SP-10MK3 with a modified EPA-B500 and A501H wand. Signal path is balanced from the cartridge -> Wayne Kirkwood flat MM pre (basically an INAMP) -> Benchmark ADC1 (or RME ADI-2 Pro FS R) -> Tascam DA-3000. I'll do RIAA with IIR bi-quad via Nyquist prompt in Audacity or similar.

And are we assuming an original V15VMR needle in good nick, or a 3rd party replacement? - if it is non original, then complete custom loading is required to get the cartridge back to neutral (or as close as possible)... my ones are running SAS needles - but the original beryllium tube cantilevered needles are superior (and made of pure unobtainium now!)

I've 13 NOS V15VMR VN5MR including a VNSE5MR and Ultra500S. I think we're good

 

[watchnerd]

12"

10"?

45 RPM?

33?

 

[JP]

14"

Probably 33 as the purpose is to compare a typical use case.

 

[Ingenieur]

What vinyl cleaning / treatment / handling regime are we talking about?

The V15VMR is a good choice - one of the most neutral ever. - What is the TT/Arm?

And are we assuming an original V15VMR needle in good nick, or a 3rd party replacement? - if it is non original, then complete custom loading is required to get the cartridge back to neutral (or as close as possible)... my ones are running SAS needles - but the original beryllium tube cantilevered needles are superior (and made of pure unobtainium now!)

Trust me, he will do it right.
He posted a plot of the cartridge, ruler flat.
He'll have C and R dialed in.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0425/8673/4752/files/V15VMR_350pF_47K_TRS-1007.png?v=1627318162

 

[dlaloum]

Cool - look forward to it.

 

[dlaloum]

PS - if the intent is to test limits of the system, you might want to align the cartridge for optimal inner track performance before those drops, and for optimal outer track performance - fiddly... but that would test close to the limits of what can be achieved.

Whereas with standard alignment, both will be compromises due to geometry (the sort of thing linear trackers overcome, while adding their own alternate compromises...)

 

[JP]

Typical use case for this one.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd be more interested if we didn't compromise the source with enough noise things are easy for vinyl. Maybe use a clean file and add noise as needed so we can compare what is needed for vinyl that you don't need for digital.

I'm usually one all for various odd comparisons like this. I must say more than 40 years on I'm kind of tired of this vinyl thing.

It reminds me of the video where they took a 1966 Corvette and a 2016 V6 Camry to a race track. The Camry obliterated the old sports/muscle car. I am sure the Corvette felt much more sporting, fast, powerful and regardless of anything more fun than driving the Camry. Yet it was obliterated by actual performance of one of the most milquetoast cars in the modern world.

Now would I get rid of a 1966 Corvette if I had one, admitting that while it is fun, it can't compete with a modern Camry? No I would not. The Corvette would continue to be more fun. I don't want a 2016 Camry thank you.

Vinyl guys need to just get over it. Vinyl is 3rd rate at best, and a distant 3rd in terms of performance. RTR would get my choice for 2nd best.

If you like and enjoy vinyl, then great. Would anyone really be upset if I pointed to the Camry and said it smokes that Vette, but I love driving that Vette (and boy it is beautiful)? I don't think so. So please don't take my mini-diatribe as anti-vinyl. It really isn't. I'm just pointing out the obvious and badly belabored point.

OTOH, yeah okay I'm in if you do this.

I'll suggest a few songs in another post.

 

[JP]

Sure, but for ABX the noise difference could be a clear tell-tale on certain tracks. The noise of a lacquer will be far less than a pressing.

I’m not doing this to prove anything in regard to vinyl, rather so some quantifiable data exists. I’ve no confusion on where it sits in the pecking order of fidelity. I am curious about how easy it is to distinguish.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Cannonball Adderly "Something Else". From the "Something else" album. Plenty of tape hiss and such for this.
And/or anything from the Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" album. Again plenty of tape hiss for your purposes.

Alternatively for a similar kind of music, something from Clark Terry's "Live at the Village gate". This is a minimalist Chesky recording with very high quality analog gear all the way thru and no processing. Pint of Bitters would be my choice track.

Dead Can Dance from the "Into the labyrinth". Any of the tracks.

Fiona Apple "Sleep to Dream" from the Tidal album.

Godsmack "Moon Baby" from the Godsmack album.

Jerry Douglas from his "Slide Rule" album, the first track Ride the Wild Turkey.

Peter Case from "The man with the post modern fragmented neo-traditionalist guitar" the track Charlie James.

Enough from me maybe a couple will be useful to you.

 

[USER]

I'll do RIAA with IIR bi-quad via Nyquist prompt in Audacity or similar.

Note that I get slightly different results when using the 44.1k and 96k Audacity Nyquist RIAA prompts. (I believe we use the same scripts.) You may want to double check them first.

 

[JP]

Filters are bitrate specific.

 

[Hiten]

I thought I'd do some degradation tests of repeat plays.

Will music with high frequency content with suffecient amplitude help in better evaluation ?

 

[Mnyb]

I’m curious to hear this . Thanks for doing interesting experiments .

Regarding normal use case will it be recorded with loudspeakers playing so the TT gets the normal amount of acoustical feedback you have when listening to vinyl

 

[USER]

Filters are bitrate specific.

Yes. These were recorded at the respective bitrate, one right after the other. All of my measurements (about 9 cartridges) show the 96k measurement sloping higher than the 44.1k. I may be doing something wrong, but you may want to check regardless.

 

[JRS]

I'd like to toss in a few suggestions: Tin Pan Alley, by SRV. There is a live recording I had access to via- Spotify I preferred, otherwise the Studio version from Couldn't Stand the Weather is fine. Maybe a tune from Muddy Water's Folk Singer ( a very good 1964 recording with fair amount of tape hiss: I like Long Distance (note there is also a MFSL recording out there). Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah (Grace) which is plagued by some low level hum, but has scads of low level detail only very capable systems seem to extract, and finally a cut with some fine LF dynamics: Lyle Lovett's Shes Already Made up her Mind (Joshua Judges Ruth).

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'd like to toss in a few suggestions: Tin Pan Alley, by SRV. There is a live recording I had access to via- Spotify I preferred, otherwise the Studio version from Couldn't Stand the Weather is fine. Maybe a tune from Muddy Water's Folk Singer ( a very good 1964 recording with fair amount of tape hiss: I like Long Distance (note there is also a MFSL recording out there). Jeff Buckley's Hallelujah (Grace) which is plagued by some low level hum, but has scads of low level detail only very capable systems seem to extract, and finally a cut with some fine LF dynamics: Lyle Lovett's Shes Already Made up her Mind (Joshua Judges Ruth).

Good choices here. I have a copy of the MFSL Muddy Water's if someone needed copies of it for this comparison.

 

[JP]

Yes. These were recorded at the respective bitrate, one right after the other. All of my measurements (about 9 cartridges) show the 96k measurement sloping higher than the 44.1k. I may be doing something wrong, but you may want to check regardless.

What are the two filters you are using?