Another "please comment on my upgrade plan" request

[tentacledog]

Hi all,

I've read countless reviews on this and other sites, and I always have the same issue - I have no real basis for comparison. My equipment is too old and uninteresting so I don't find comparable reviews of them to give a reference point. And there really aren't any trustworthy or well-equipped hi-fi stores in my region. So I'm looking for some comments on my plan.

So here it is, in order of importance:
1) Speakers: I currently have a pair of wharfedale diamond 8.4's and a second pair of diamond 9.2's (in two different rooms, same amp, so I switch between A/B depending on where I want the music). I've been pretty happy with these, especially the 9.2's, but I know there's way better stuff out there. I'm currently considering the Revel M16, M105, or M106 speakers. These all have very impressive reviews and a price I can swallow.
2) Turntable: currently a Jaytec djt-2 that came with a box of cereal. Upgrade this to something in the ~300-400 price range (that seems to be the sensible price/performance segment for me): Rega Planar 1, Audio-Technica LP120, Pro-ject T1.
3) Amp: I'm using an old, basic Yamaha rx v595 AV receiver. Switch that to a Denon DRA-800H or Yamaha R-N803D. These are around $800, good enough for my purposes, decent reviews, and have spotify/etc built-in (not that I care much, but nice to have).

Those all add up to "only" a few grand. I'd be willing to spend more IF it was really meaningfully better, but I gather this is about where the law of diminishing returns starts to kick in, especially for my middle-aged ears. Aside from vinyl, I listen to flac/mp3s using plex, and spotify, from a chromecast audio over TOS link.

How does that plan sound... any brainfarts I'm not realizing?
Is a phono preamp a meaningful improvement compared to whatever comes in the amp?
Anything else I should be researching? EQs, DACs, etc? My impression so far is that, at my price/expectation level, the answer is no.

 

[Triliza]

One of the things people on this forum mention frequently is the importance of room treatment (not something easy to do most of the time) and room correction, a miniDSP with Dirac for example. I don't know how that can fit in your system, but that is something to consider imo.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

If you don't have a significant investment or attraction to vinyl it would make the decisions alot easier.

 

[alex-z]

Spending $800 on an amplifier for that caliber of speaker is a poor choice. You hit diminishing returns much faster with electronics than you do with speakers.

Also, acoustic treatment and subwoofers should be top of your priority list. Managing reflections and getting good bass extension dramatically improves any system. If you didn't touch a single piece of gear and only added $1000 on acoustic treatment and $1500 on subwoofers you would swear you weren't listening to the same speakers.

 

[tentacledog]

One of the things people on this forum mention frequently is the importance of room treatment (not something easy to do most of the time) and room correction, a miniDSP with Dirac for example. I don't know how that can fit in your system, but that is something to consider imo.

How does minidsp/dirac compare to the room correction on the yamaha (YPAO)? As the price of the minidsp is already close to the full amp...

 

[Willem]

How does minidsp/dirac compare to the room correction on the yamaha (YPAO)? As the price of the minidsp is already close to the full amp...

This is a very good question. Everyone here seems to think that room interaction and dsp room eq are of prime importance, and yet there are few in depth comparisons of the options. I would be more interested in those things than in the umpteenth DAC. I admit proper testing may be hard.

 

[ZolaIII]

Phono preamp performance depends on how good implementation is. I don't know how good integrated one's in Yamaha and Denon (Denon made quite fuss about it) are but R-N803 is better amplifier (if you still can find one). Would be great if it had good usabile room correction/DSP but it doesn't. Try considering power amplifier without bilt in phono preamp and stand alone good performing mesured one. There are cheaper Yamahas with same output stage without hpono preamp in both R-N and SA lines. I have a R-N402D for instance which doesn't have any additional DSP capabilities, just basic standard tone controls bit less analog inputs, no phono stage. It's simple as it can get and works good enough. The price difference is only 300$ but that's enough money either for a good preamp with DSP or phono stage.
Generally your plan makes sense and investing most in speakers and take your time choosing one's (insist on auditioning).

 

[tentacledog]

Spending $800 on an amplifier for that caliber of speaker is a poor choice. You hit diminishing returns much faster with electronics than you do with speakers.

Even comparing to my 15 year old dinky yamaha? I was under the impression that even if the newer DACs etc wont bring any (or much) real noticeable improvement, features like YPAO make it worth considering.

Also, acoustic treatment and subwoofers should be top of your priority list. Managing reflections and getting good bass extension dramatically improves any system. If you didn't touch a single piece of gear and only added $1000 on acoustic treatment and $1500 on subwoofers you would swear you weren't listening to the same speakers.

Yes, that's a good point and I've been looking into acoustic panels. My options are a little limited thanks to the architecture and spousal design committee approval but I will research more. I'd not really been considering subwoofers since my neighbors are 90-year olds with way too good hearing for their age. But maybe I should reconsider that.

 

[ZolaIII]

@tentacledog then at least go for the speakers with 8" wafer or bigger. Room correction EQ will help more than acoustic treatment and cost for less.

 

[alex-z]

@tentacledog then at least go for the speakers with 8" wafer or bigger. Room correction EQ will help more than acoustic treatment and cost for less.

That is completely untrue. EQ is not going to help more than acoustic treatment, the laws of physics still apply.

EQ can only change the on-axis frequency response of a speaker. The radiation pattern, and therefore reflections will remain constant. Acoustic treatment in a room helps manage problematic reflections, and brings down overall decay times. Even if you had a speaker with perfect frequency response and radiation pattern, acoustic treatment would still help.

It isn't even an expensive process. 2x4ft panels built with 3.5" mineral wool cost less than $40 a piece.

 

[alex-z]

Even comparing to my 15 year old dinky yamaha? I was under the impression that even if the newer DACs etc wont bring any (or much) real noticeable improvement, features like YPAO make it worth considering.



Yes, that's a good point and I've been looking into acoustic panels. My options are a little limited thanks to the architecture and spousal design committee approval but I will research more. I'd not really been considering subwoofers since my neighbors are 90-year olds with way too good hearing for their age. But maybe I should reconsider that.

Yes, even your 15 year old Yamaha isn't some huge limitation. It is common and easy to have an amplifier with .1% distortion or less.

Now consider the distortion levels produced by the speakers themselves, and how sensitive our hearing is. It is common to have over 1% distortion in a speaker design and have it remain inaudible. At lower frequencies, that number rises even higher. 10% harmonic distortion in a subwoofer is usually undetectable.

The more modern room correction software will help, but not to some huge extent. The room correction software in affordable receivers is still rather limited. An external solution like a miniDSP 2x4HD offers a lot more flexibility, especially when it comes to subwoofer integration.

Subwoofers can be done subtly. Even a sealed 10 or 12" model going down to 40Hz is going to provide noticeably better bass extension than your speakers themselves, and improve sound quality. This is because the woofers in the speakers won't need as much excursion, leading to reduced inter-modulation distortion. With your budget, I would go with a pair of SVS SB-1000 Pro, or build something DIY.

 

[ZolaIII]

@alex-z do you know what's the difference between old fashion three way speakers and modern two ways one + sub? The old one's were all in one.

 

[Triliza]

How does minidsp/dirac compare to the room correction on the yamaha (YPAO)? As the price of the minidsp is already close to the full amp...

I don't know how they perform, individually or in comparison. Amir did a review of Audyssey at some point and found its performance satisfactory:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audyssey-room-eq-review.12746/

I haven't seen any complains for Dirac, so I think it would perform as good as Audyssey and probably much better.

 

[EEE272]

Regarding room correction, it all depends on how flat your response is in the first place. I also have not tested all systems but can give at least some insights.

I first had an Yamaha rx810. It does not correct the sub at all and has no Ypao RSC.
Then I stepped up to the 3020, which had Ypao rsc, which had some sub correction and improved the rest of the calibration quite a bit by 1-2dB. The single sub was still in need of additional correction though.

I then got an antimode, which is very close to Audyssey in the low frequencies (Someone on another forum compared this some time ago). This clearly improved the sound. Less peaks, better time behavior - sounded great. I then got a MiniDSP, which gives you more flexibility in deciding what you do. I wanted to play with BEQ, which is a software for minidsp to undo limiting filters on blu-ray content. With the minidsp, I got to within 1 dB of the antimode result - I could not hear a difference but you have to know REW to really use the minidsp well.

As said, Ypao is not great for sub correction because you only have 4 PEQ bands. Nevertheless, it is great as an add on to tweak sound further.
Also, I then got a second sub, which again was a clear step up. If you can place several subs well that eliminate dips and strong peaks, there is not even that much to correct anymore. Even with the ypao PEQ, you might be able to get very good results.

For the higher frequencies Ypao is great anyway because you have full control and can even apply adjustments based on the anechoic direct response of the speaker - information you can find or measure but that is not available to other calibration systems. The latter is a reason why users often restrict automatic corrections to below the transition frequency, while Ypao can be beneficial in that region.

Long story short; I would get multiple subs and room treatment first. Then an additional correction system for the base. You can try the newer Ypao first, or if you want it automatic; Dirac, Audyssey, or the simplest in-use antimode. Or if you like to tweak things, a minidsp.

Hope this helps.

 

[dshreter]

Everyone here seems to think that room interaction and dsp room eq are of prime importance, and yet there are few in depth comparisons of the options.

Here you go, we are lucky to have an expert here.

Understanding the State of the Art of Digital Room Correction

A deep dive presentation on the fundamentals of "proper" Digital Room Correction (DRC). Includes hands-on DSP FIR Filter Designer demos using Acourate and Audiolense. Having participated in many audio forum discussions, having watched online videos on Digital Room Correction (or DRC), and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[EEE272]

I don't know how they perform, individually or in comparison. Amir did a review of Audyssey at some point and found its performance satisfactory:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/audyssey-room-eq-review.12746/

I haven't seen any complains for Dirac, so I think it would perform as good as Audyssey and probably much better.

There was a recent video about a comparison with Sonarworks. The graphs are interesting, as they show what Dirac and Sonarworks obtain.
I thought Dirac looked like it would sound better but he still preferred Sonarworks in the end for other reasons.

It is funny though that he does not seem to have heard of the reason for the tilt instead of flat. BTW. This is a good example for what can go wrong though because the tilt should come naturally and should not be enforced by an EQ, which can harm the direct sound.

 

[tentacledog]

Thanks for all the responses, this has been very helpful. I still have to research more but I think I will go for a somewhat cheaper amp with YPAO or Audyssey. I find really varying opinions on how these compare to each other and dirac etc, and there are lots of moving parts (xt vs xt32, old implementations vs new, your subs, etc etc). But even amirm seemed happy with audyssey so I figure it's worth a shot, with the added benefit that my old amp can be repurposed elsewhere. Clearly a minidsp or similar is more flexible and probably better, but I'll revisit that option later depending on how much I like(/dislike) audyssey/ypao.

Oh and acoustic panels with prints are a thing, which I hadn't thought of. This will make it way easier to get my wife on board

 

[EEE272]

But even amirm seemed happy with audyssey so I figure it's worth a shot, with the added benefit that my old amp can be repurposed elsewhere.

Sounds all good! One remark only, I believe amir mentioned explicitly Xt32, including the app. The older Audyssey versions do not seem comparable.