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Another Nail in the Coffin of Objectivity

Robin L

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As the ghost of Professor Dumbledore says in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, "Of course it's all happening in your head, Harry Potter, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

John Atkinson
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. . . "You're a novice paranoid, Roger," first time Prentice has ever used his Christian name and it touches Roger enough to check his tirade. "Of course a well-developed They-system is necessary---but it's only half the story. For every They there ought to be a We. In our case there is. Creative paranoia means developing at least as thorough a We-system as a They-system---" . . .

Gravity's Rainbow, pg. 650
 

mocenigo

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ESPECIALLY once you accept they fact that a company like Audioquest for instance has been caught bullshitting. It then becomes even more reason to accept their version of the reality they're trying to spin.

Are you referring to the (in)famous 2014 video or something more recent?
 

charleski

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As the ghost of Professor Dumbledore says in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, "Of course it's all happening in your head, Harry Potter, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

Anyone who spends most of their life on Craggy Island is inevitably going to develop a tenuous grip on Reality...
 

Phorize

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escksu

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If not for light, the darkness would envelope all. Jim

There is a chinese idiom which translates to: The well water does not interfere or offend the river water.

So, you do what you like and what you believe and they do the same. They don't interfere with you and vice versa.
 

JustAnandaDourEyedDude

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The coffin is full or empty, depending on whether the reader is a subjectivist or an objectivist. If you believe both subjective reports and objective measurements, then the coffin is both full and empty for you.

On a serious note, though, would it not be another indicator of the existence of objectivity at the macroscopic level that people all over the world are able to run a copy of one and the same computer program (on the same computer architecture, of course, and not one of them new-fangled quantum computers), and agree that they each got the same number as the output? And be able to repeat this any number of times with the same outcome?
 
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phoenixdogfan

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But not really anything new. Just getting popular exposure.
As Korzybski put it, "The map is not the territory." We can certainly understand this statement, for example, when we think about human vision which captures only a small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, has very low resolution in terms of pixels when compared with a 1080p HDTV image, and a very narrow field of view which is compensated for by unconscious automatic eye movement to create the larger field of view we are consciously aware of.

Of course such a poor tool misses much, and we have with our technology supplemented it an array of electromagnetic monitoring devices to learn more about "the territory." But such tools never became part of human vision because it evolved only to enhance the survival of the members of our species until those individuals could pass on their genes to their offspring. In short, much of our sensory tools evolved not to allow us to perceive reality as it exists in and of itself, but rather to allow humans to survive in that reality by navigating it so as to be able to feed, reproduce, and defend ourselves. Anything else the species has achieved beyond that is a side effect of our evolutionary heritage. Hence, our senses provide a map rather than direct access to the territory.

And don't even get me started on how the limbic system filters the sensory data so only a minute portion is available to the conscious mind...
 
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Kal Rubinson

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As Korzybski put it, "The map is not the territory." We can certainly understand this statement, for example, when we think about human vision which captures only a small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, has very low resolution in terms of pixels when compared with a 1080p HDTV image, and a very narrow field of view which is compensated for by unconscious automatic eye movement to create the larger field of view we are consciously aware of.

Of course such a poor tool misses much, and we have with our technology supplemented it an array of electromagnetic monitoring devices to learn more about "the territory." But such tools never became part of human vision because it evolved only to enhance the survival of the members of our species until those individuals could pass on their genes to their offspring. In short, much of our sensory tools evolved not to allow us to perceive reality as it exists in and of itself, but rather to allow humans to survive in that reality by navigating it so as to be able to feed, reproduce, and defend ourselves. Anything else the species has achieved beyond that is a side effect of our evolutionary heritage. Hence, our senses provide a map rather than direct access to the territory.

And don't even get me started on how the limbic system filters the sensory data so only a minute portion is available to the conscious mind...
Sure. Not new news either. :rolleyes:
 

Frgirard

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This may be of interest.
Put your hand in water at 100 degrees and test the objectivity.
This is not a secret our brain give us a representation of the objective reality.
The technology world works fine even if we never know the reality in itself.
 

Berwhale

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On a serious note, though, would it not be another indicator of the existence of objectivity at the macroscopic level that people all over the world are able to run a copy of one and the same computer program (on the same computer architecture, of course, and not one of them new-fangled quantum computers), and agree that they each got the same number as the output? And be able to repeat this any number of times with the same outcome?

In practice, computing is not quite as deterministic may people like to believe (or Intel, AMD, etc. will claim). For example, bits can be flipped: The Universe is Hostile to Computers - YouTube
 

pozz

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If you mean what I think you meant by the 16th century philosophy that serves as the baseline for the consequence of the science that came after this Enlightenment period, was simply you trying to say something along the lines of: "Baseless illogical thinking was philosophically accepted as nonsensical, and something pervading all society. And since most of that sort of thinking was rooted in anti-Enlightenment proponents of religious affiliation. Finally, because we still have such high rates of people employing this way of thought, since we still have religion so commonplace in much of society, we still have to contend with such reality".

On the off chance you actually mean something different like: "Since the 16th Century, we've had philosophical thinking that tried to replace the role of God and the faith based rational of people - and is something we have to contend with in the modern day in the form of Scientism... This is because the folks who are most versed with pushing philosophy forward were classically people of theist origins (theologians), thus we have the modern day mess of science that thinks it can override philosophy, which it can't and philosophers have shown why this is the case, even with their modern decendents who aren't even theists, nonetheless demonstrate why science has to thank philosphy for pointing it in the 'right direction' that allowed it to make all the progress it has."

If it's the first, I pretty much agree, if it the latter:

I'd agree, but with some reserve. In order to understand something more mysterious, we need to devise complex rigging in order to tear it apart for observation and movement around the issue (basically as the article hints at, we require more perspectives as the more elusive an answer is). So, the complexity isn't just because we're stupid with nothing better to do, it's basically forced because solving something grand with simplicity from the offset is basically a pipe dream with any sort of understanding. The simplification occurs after the complexity is mostly understood, and then boiled back down for easy regurgitation for the rest of the population (in the same way all the engineering and math headaches involved in bringing desktop PC's to our homes and now our palms, started out as disgustingly complex talking points to even be able to discuss the notion).

Another thing is though, I don't think much of any scientific development has been much of any philosophical work, simply because science isnt' concerned with philosophical work for the most part. In the same way you being unable to quell your natural instincts like 'curiosity' or 'hunger' have nothing to do with some philosophical understanding. In fact much of scientific discovery has been forced upon us even before the existence of our species (the simple sensory systems our per-cursor species have evolved to have, and their employment, is in fact the Scientific Method being applied unwittingly and by force, without any intent on our part, or any machination directly). Much of our philosophy has to do with harmonizing/explaining the realizations we've gotten as a result of science (science here also meaning the aforementioned simple use of something like our eyes and realizing what wind is even if we only see grass moving in the distance). We don't start our lives wondering 'why' something is, simply because we have no concept of something 'being' at all in the first place. It's only after experiential events, do we then have enough baseline material to even begin to contemplate the implications of asking questions like: 'why' of something that 'is' (which is what philosophy is somewhat more concerned with). But none of us are born with the apriori philosophical mode of thinking. We first do the science (using our senses to know about our world), and then comes the philosophy to try and see 'if & how' any of our senses make 'some sense' for a lack of a better term.

EDIT: More typo corrections.
It's hard for me to reply without getting lecturish. I'll try keep it short. I wrote about this stuff a decade ago so it's hard to recall some of the details.

If we roughly split European intellectual history into three periods—before the collapse of the Roman empire, scholasticism/renaissance (by the way wholly reliant on the Middle East for preserving and transmitting the important source texts), enlightenment/global colonialism—we are in the third period. I don't think we are leaving it any time soon. As far as a central conflict goes, I also don't think we are rational people fighting irrationality or outmoded perspectives. Despite how long it's been, the main issue is still the plurality of perspectives. Our institutions certainly aren't set up for it.

Science was born from religion. The word itself is from scientia, knowledge, which then referred to religious knowledge specifically. Knowledge of good and evil, of virtues, etc. Leibniz was the first as far as I know to come up with the term scientia generalis, general knowledge, in the 1600s. That was an encyclopedic project to categorize existing knowledge and create a tool for new discoveries, the emphasis being that knowledge was not esoteric or limited by nature to certain subjects, that it could be easily shared and understood. This was also the same period where a lot of mechanical inventions and early automation (think windmills) appeared across Europe. A lot of math was also invented at the same time, by people (Newton, Descartes, Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Mersenne) who, nominally, are called either philosophers or scientists depending on the roots of the intellectual tradition of the commentary. Most current engineers and scientists know the innovations and the math, but never read the source texts, which are obviously religious even at first glance. The popular commentary by historians and public intellectuals also tends to skip over most of the way these thinkers worked out their conclusions.

If you want to define the main difference between the previous era and ours, intellectually, the shift was from searching for causes to defining interdependence. From a religious perspective, that shift in attention was from the divine to the temporary, the former tending to encompass the why of things, while the latter with how things work. Thing is, this was done consciously. There was a lot of argument about it, which led up to, for example, Laplace's System of the World being published at the end of the 1700s, which as far as I know was the first published scientific work that had no mention of God. Not because that mention didn't belong or persist silently in the background, but because it was unnecessary for the task at hand. The reasoning for the movement of the Earth relative to the other planets, their formation and destruction and so forth, was sufficiently worked out and had enough compiled observation to stand on its own. By then there was enough of a separate vocabulary which made a book like that possible. But all of that vocabulary was invented as complications or appropriations of traditional religious terms, i.e., repurposed, the same way the Christian vocabulary repurposed the vocabulary of the Greeks, Romans and Arabs. In both cases the emphasis, focus and status of terminology was shifted through laborious and complex reasoning that searched for some freer mode of expression. The language that we use now is at least partially the result of that work.

All of the emphasis on physical mechanics in the sciences fundamentally concerns the interactions of things that are in constant decay and reconstitution. Knowledge, science, in some sense, is what preserves these things beyond their transitory states. That's an eminently religious notion, and there's good historical evidence that this the perspective that led to the development of the scientific method.

---------------

Only partially related: when "subjectivists" (I hate the word is used to designate camps) write something militant, poetic or ignorant, I tend to think of their failure being that of sh-tty subjectivism. As in, you did not examine yourself enough, you jumped to an easy conclusion. Same goes for insistent, obstinate "objectivists": you did not do enough research, you were not critical enough, you simplified and communicated poorly.
 

pozz

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