Another guy on Youtube going to visit Danny down in texas....

[fcracer]

sooner or later everyone in audio business will realize that selling high price cables is the most profitable way to do business. and nobody will buy your $300 or more cables if you are not marketing it as "vastly improved the sound". the only difference is if someone has enough conscience to refuse going down that path.
Danny has made his decisions.

People buy expensive things for a number of reasons. It could be brand name, build quality, appearance, warranty, service before and after the sale, and a hundred other reasons. Even when we live in a utopia, measurements driven, audio science world, there will be plenty of space for manufacturers and retailers to make money on high end cables.

The difference will be that they'll be honest that they sound the same, but other factors drive the price (brand, build quality, appearance, etc). It's a tough leap for these companies to make, but there is evidence out there that this works in audio just like it does in every other consumer category.

Look at NAD as an example. They essentially sell the same 2-channel Purifi amplifier at two price points, the C298 and the M23. The difference being the materials used for the boxes, the appearance, maybe build quality although I don't see it in my M33, and the cachet that you have a "Masters" series in the M line. NAD is very successful so other brands can copy this strategy.

A personal example. I know that speaker cables don't make a difference after a certain gauge. The shop I was buying cables from told me the same (Blue Jeans), but I still spent 3x more than I needed to because I like the way Blue Jeans treats their customers and how they attach the banana plugs.

 

[beagleman]

As long as there are audiophiles that have very little understanding of how human hearing works, there will be a market for this silly stuff.

I have been in forums where many guys seriously believe, they have superior hearing and have almost no understanding or belief in how our mind factors in to what we hear, as far as expectations, biases, mood, and the other random dozen things that alter what we "believe" we are hearing.


"I know what I hear" and "I trust my ears"

The sign of someone clueless to actual human hearing process.

 

[JSmith]

selling nice DIY speakers

Not much good happening with this model;

GR Research LGK 2.0 Speaker Review (A Joke)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GR Research "Little Giant Killer" (LGK) 2.0 bookshelf speaker. It comes in various forms from a kit ($313) to fully finished pair ($1,038). Our DIY expert @Rick Sykora built my sample using the flatpack ($100): Rick had to do the round over on...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

 

[beagleman]

Not much good happening with this model;

GR Research LGK 2.0 Speaker Review (A Joke)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GR Research "Little Giant Killer" (LGK) 2.0 bookshelf speaker. It comes in various forms from a kit ($313) to fully finished pair ($1,038). Our DIY expert @Rick Sykora built my sample using the flatpack ($100): Rick had to do the round over on...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

Honestly its not a "bad" speaker, but simply very over-priced for what it is.

A decent although quite small 3" full range driver, that has fairly good mids and so on, but not worth even close to a thousand for a fully finished model.
As a mid only driver from maybe 700--3 to 4 khz it would work.

 

[delta76]

People buy expensive things for a number of reasons. It could be brand name, build quality, appearance, warranty, service before and after the sale, and a hundred other reasons. Even when we live in a utopia, measurements driven, audio science world, there will be plenty of space for manufacturers and retailers to make money on high end cables.

The difference will be that they'll be honest that they sound the same, but other factors drive the price (brand, build quality, appearance, etc). It's a tough leap for these companies to make, but there is evidence out there that this works in audio just like it does in every other consumer category.

Look at NAD as an example. They essentially sell the same 2-channel Purifi amplifier at two price points, the C298 and the M23. The difference being the materials used for the boxes, the appearance, maybe build quality although I don't see it in my M33, and the cachet that you have a "Masters" series in the M line. NAD is very successful so other brands can copy this strategy.

A personal example. I know that speaker cables don't make a difference after a certain gauge. The shop I was buying cables from told me the same (Blue Jeans), but I still spent 3x more than I needed to because I like the way Blue Jeans treats their customers and how they attach the banana plugs.

up until the point. in your example M23 is only a bit more expensive than C298. It also belongs to a different product class which commands greater price, for the reasons you said.
for your second example, you are paying for extra quality and customer service, but only because the cable is like $10 - you can pay $30 to be happy. I can tell your decision will be different if it's $10 and $300.

Some people will still pay $300 or more if it not marketed as "improves the sound". But that number will be much, much smaller than with that marketing.

 

[fcracer]

up until the point. in your example M23 is only a bit more expensive than C298. It also belongs to a different product class which commands greater price, for the reasons you said.
for your second example, you are paying for extra quality and customer service, but only because the cable is like $10 - you can pay $30 to be happy. I can tell your decision will be different if it's $10 and $300.

Some people will still pay $300 or more if it not marketed as "improves the sound". But that number will be much, much smaller than with that marketing.

People pay $4,000 for a Louis Vuitton bag when they could have spent $400 on a similar non-branded one that does exactly the same thing.

 

[delta76]

People pay $4,000 for a Louis Vuitton bag when they could have spent $400 on a similar non-branded one that does exactly the same thing.

have you seen any LV marketing saying that their bag "vastly improves things it carry" (like perfume smells better etc.)???
People buy LV or other luxury fashion items because they are a social status, and their resale value is high (you can even make a profit). Don't tell me with straight face that people buying "high end" cables because of the same reasons. not all, but 99% of those bought, or will buy, because they believe in the snake oil BS

 

[GM3]

As poorly executed as this test was, I give credit that they’re at least trying.

I disagree. This seems to me far more a case of let's mislead the listeners rather than let's try to find out the truth.

Danny Richie (sp?) is the one who sells the cables. He knows that he's comparing an 8 AWG cable to a 16 AWG cable. He's totally aware that they're comparing apples and oranges. He's really not trying to test the veracity of "does his snakeoil cable has better performance than a normal cable", he's into lets hoodwink the listener into thinking that you need his ridiculously expensive braided speaker wire, because they sound that much better than normal cables

It's really a bad faith effort. If you read the exchange I quoted in the last page, it makes it very evident. Even in discussion with random internet stranger, he cannot admit basic truths and is clearly attempting to mislead people. The alternative being that he knows absolutely nothing about the topic and is absolutely confused...

And again, are they going to test power cables under blind conditions? Of course not... He's not interested in the truth, which he likely knows, he's interested in selling ultra expensive cables that in all likelihood could not be differentiated vs a normal cable of similar size & length. And if differentiable, would surely be measurable, and due to 'broken cable by design', which he'd be fully aware of, given he pushes ultra expensive & high quality components, including wire, in his crossovers kits...!

If you read the comments of the video, probably 95% people seem to believe that it has been demonstrated that snakeoil cables sound much better than regular cables. If that was not the intent, then I think it's safe to say that the test was a failure.

The stated intent was; is there a difference between 'normal' 16 AWG cable, and an audiophile cable. I don't think it's a valid tests for that, if that's what you want to prove, you have to use 2 cables with same length and gauge. With different gauges, any difference will far more be caused by gauge than anything else. Full disclosure; I'm somewhat surprised he managed to guess correctly, but this could be due to simply hearing the cable being plugged in, and in more likely hood the sound of the cable hitting the floor, which is clearly audible, plus as mentioned amp selection might have something to do with it, or any other number of reasons...

That's why you need a controlled test, and not controlled by the person who stands to profit from the sales of the tested item. If controlled by such person, then extra precautions and measures should be taken so that the results are accurate; as to make sure there could not be any trickery or testing flaws involved..

 

[AdamG]

To put some money where my mouth is, I’ll commit $100 to contribute to someone or a group willing to setup a proper blind test and document it so that others can learn from it and replicate it.

Very generous offer @fcracer . I will match your donation. Amir already does this every day in his reviews. But it would be a fun adventure to see a group of ASR Members band together and accomplish an actual double blind experiment with cables. Do we have any volunteers to act as the Test Coordinator/Director?

 

[fpitas]

have you seen any LV marketing saying that their bag "vastly improves things it carry" (like perfume smells better etc.)???
People buy LV or other luxury fashion items because they are a social status, and their resale value is high (you can even make a profit). Don't tell me with straight face that people buying "high end" cables because of the same reasons. not all, but 99% of those bought, or will buy, because they believe in the snake oil BS

My gf looks extra smug when I buy her expensive stuff. That has to count for something!

 

[mmuetst]

Not much good happening with this model;

GR Research LGK 2.0 Speaker Review (A Joke)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GR Research "Little Giant Killer" (LGK) 2.0 bookshelf speaker. It comes in various forms from a kit ($313) to fully finished pair ($1,038). Our DIY expert @Rick Sykora built my sample using the flatpack ($100): Rick had to do the round over on...

www.audiosciencereview.com

JSmith

Some samples of the Good stuff from GR:

GR Research Klipsch RP-600M Upgrade Review (speaker)

This is a review of a Klipsch RP-600M which has been upgraded to a new crossover, binding posts and "No Rez" by GR Research. The kit costs US $244. OK, so there is nothing externally which is different. :) I can't open the unit to show the different bits but here is the back with new binding...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"Conclusions
The flaw in stock RP-600M is so obvious and so is the solution. It was reassuring to see GR Research correcting the response and smartly using lower order filters as to keep the cost down. The difference is dramatic. I can't listen to the stock version. But with the mod, the combination was definitely a contender. You lose some sensitivity so better have a good sized amplifier. The narrow directivity is not to my taste but may be to yours"

GR Research X-LS Encore Kit Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the GR Research X-LS Encore DIY Kit speaker. It was kindly put together by member @Rick Sykora. You can see his build thread here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/build-of-gr-research-x-ls-encore.14312/ The bare kit...

www.audiosciencereview.com

"Conclusions
The GR Research X-LS Encore DIY KIT build as I tested shows very good performance which with a bit of EQ, rose up to near excellent. Yes there are some technical errors in directivity but otherwise, good attempt has been made to produce near neutral presentation which is what we strive for."

I did not say all of the DIY from Danny is good.

 

[DanielT]

Do we know what type of HiFi equipment was used in the test?
What signal source was used?
Even more interesting:
Amplifier, brand model?
How long were the speaker cables?

Speaking of thin cables, DIN speaker connector. Anyone who has tried fixing cables into such knows how thin they need to be (at least with the DIN contacts I had). BUT it is only in the screwing in the connector. Thicker cables can follow the connector. It's such a short distance so it can't possibly, I think, affect the sound, or?

See attached pictures for examples.

Edit:
Last picture. The clear cable, 16 gauge next to the thin cable into the DIN connector. So those of you who haven't dabbled with such contacts understand what it looks like.
Btw, they are a pain in the ass to deal with.

 

[fcracer]

have you seen any LV marketing saying that their bag "vastly improves things it carry" (like perfume smells better etc.)???
People buy LV or other luxury fashion items because they are a social status, and their resale value is high (you can even make a profit). Don't tell me with straight face that people buying "high end" cables because of the same reasons. not all, but 99% of those bought, or will buy, because they believe in the snake oil BS

We are making essentially the same point. My point is that these companies should drop the snake oil nonsense and focus on other attributes that consumers have shown a willingness to pay for. In this crazy Hype Beast driven world, who knows. We may one day be coveting Supreme or Palace branded cables

 

[DMill]

People pay $4,000 for a Louis Vuitton bag when they could have spent $400 on a similar non-branded one that does exactly the same thing.

I would expect my Louis Vuitton bag to be well made, but you are paying for the logo and you know it. Same is true in audio I suppose when you buy a Mark Levinson amp. Yes, it’s great, but the logo and fit and finish make it 10x the cost Of something that does the same job. I suppose so long as you know that going in, who can argue?

 

[fpitas]

I would expect my Louis Vuitton bag to be well made, but you are paying for the logo and you know it. Same is true in audio I suppose when you buy a Mark Levinson amp. Yes, it’s great, but the logo and fit and finish make it 10x the cost Of something that does the same job. I suppose so long as you know that going in, who can argue?

I agree. I "splurged" on an amp hand-built by Nelson Pass. Just because that's cool. Will that make it sound different? Heck no. Although it is built correctly, which is nice.

 

[amirm]

People pay $4,000 for a Louis Vuitton bag when they could have spent $400 on a similar non-branded one that does exactly the same thing.

But the $4,000 one is not made out of lead and is almost too heavy to carry. Such is the case with these garden hose cords which put huge stress on connectors and are pain in the neck to route and such. You pay more and get less here.

 

[amirm]

Amplifier, brand model?

The amp brand is "Dodd" which was a tube amplifier. There is hardly any information out there on it as it came out long, long time ago. It kind of looks like the one in the right:

Jay did a really poor job of explaining the setup. Above came from grabbing a shot from the video. Simple shot of the back of the speaker terminals is fuzzy and confusing.

Danny was using his phone to select music and jumping back and forth so some kind of streamer was being used with digital source. In the past he has talked about battery operated audio gear. The Dodd pre-amp above is battery operated so maybe he was talking about that.

Speakers were his. They were giant towers with many drivers. I estimate 6 to 8 feet tall each.

 

[fcracer]

But the $4,000 one is not made out of lead and is almost too heavy to carry. Such is the case with these garden hose cords which put huge stress on connectors and are pain in the neck to route and such. You pay more and get less here.

Agree completely that these manufacturers have to find the right ways to add premium. Firehose diameter is not one of them. The key is that I want them to be honest on what you’re paying for (brand, prestige, aesthetics, materials, warranty, etc).

 

[DanielT]

The amp brand is "Dodd" which was a tube amplifier. There is hardly any information out there on it as it came out long, long time ago. It kind of looks like the one in the right:

View attachment 276314

Jay did a really poor job of explaining the setup. Above came from grabbing a shot from the video. Simple shot of the back of the speaker terminals is fuzzy and confusing.

Danny was using his phone to select music and jumping back and forth so some kind of streamer was being used with digital source. In the past he has talked about battery operated audio gear. The Dodd pre-amp above is battery operated so maybe he was talking about that.

Speakers were his. They were giant towers with many drivers. I estimate 6 to 8 feet tall each.

Aha, so a tube amp that you (we)don't know much about. Maybe 10 W power with the damping factor of 5-10. It could be the case. Maybe less power than that.
Speaker cables might then have an audible impact, or? Especially with longer cables.Anyway, I do not know if thats the case.
It is more of a question than a statement on my part.

This stuff seems to be what was used in the test:
(in any case, the same brand on the amplifier, maybe a different model)

GR Research, Dodd Audio | Lone Star Audio Fest 2019

Hi-Fi news, gear reviews, and interviews

parttimeaudiophile.com

 

[fpitas]

Agree completely that these manufacturers have to find the right ways to add premium. Firehose diameter is not one of them. The key is that I want them to be honest on what you’re paying for (brand, prestige, aesthetics, materials, warranty, etc).

I doubt being honest is a viable business model. Too much competition claiming the world.