LG: Weird, Audio Science Review measured the cable and found that it makes absolutely no difference. 'skeptical' is good, but doesn't eliminate placebo, and if you heard differences in your recordings, it's a non-power cord factor. Watch it seriously; GR Research B24 AC Cable Review: Does it Make an Audible Difference? [...] Do you honestly believe that there are differences because you heard them? Or do you acknowledge the possibility that the cables will have absolutely ZERO impact on the sound; as was proven beyond the shadow of a doubt in the aforementioned video?
DR: Watch that video again. He measured a 20db reduction in noise within the audio range, and he didn't even measure it above that range. The rest was conjecture about what would or would not be heard. The rest of it was complete nonsense as he had no idea what he was doing. He didn't even burn it in. What a total joke.
LG: [...] Any/all difference between power cables are insignificant as they eliminated by the power supply, and as measured; proven; the final audio signal is unaffected.
DR: He did not properly conduct the null test. Anyone that understands what is going on and how this works knows that he has no idea what he is doing. He did conduct a noise level test that showed our cable reduced noise within the audible band by 20db. He then theorized that it would be below the audible band and make no difference.
LG: You're talking nonsense. You're talking about the Audio Science video/review?! What was improper about the null test? He plugged in the power cord, played a song, and recorded the generated audio signal. He repeated for the 2nd power cable. Then he inverted the wave so that opposite waves cancel out, and he was left with a flat line; no difference; identical. It's also completely moronic to talk about 'noise' and dBs when the power cable carries no audio signal. For SHITS AND GIGGLES he used the POWER CABLE as an INTERCONNECT, which NOBODY DOES...! It's completely irrelevant as a test. The bottom line is that using the power cable as a power cable results in no difference in the audio signal. Maybe if you use the power cable as coat hanger or or a tree swing it's better than a normal power cable, but if you use it as a power cable, it's completely irrelevant.
DR: The only nonsense was in that video. I can prove everything I just said. The null test was a joke. He has no idea what he is going. If he would have made a recording and then made a second recording using the same cable and then nulled it then he should have been left with a measurable and audible noise level as RFI and EMI is not a constant. It is variable. It moves constantly from one millisecond to the next. So a null does not remove it. In some areas reversing it will make it in phase and double the noise level. Everyone that understands this stuff was laughing at him.
LG: RFI and EMI as I stated are negligible from a power cable, since the power supply will convert AC to DC, and no audio signal goes through the power cable. Your notion that a power cable influences the audio signal is as silly as saying that the power cable of a coffee machine influences the purity and taste of the coffee. [...] Just to be sure, you're aware that the power cable is used as a power cable and not an interconnect yes? Because you seem confused as to where the cable sits in your home stereo. HINT: It's not part of the audio signal chain. ASR proved it in his review; ZERO measurable effect on the audio signal.
DR: Absolutely that stuff on the incoming power makes an audible difference. A simple A/B comparison confirms that to be true immediately. [...]
LG: An A/B comparison is an error-prone test. It's a well known phenomenon; placebo, bias, short auditory memory, etc., all can and do result in people thinking they can hear differences when there's none. Human brain is easily fooled. And anyone can claim anything, but in this case, a DBT or BT isn't even necessary because it's been proven that it does not make an audible difference. It's been measured. Proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. You're no different than someone who claims that he can read minds, but doesn't want to prove that he can, because he believes his mind reading is evident. Making claims is easy. Proving that you do is another matter.
DR: You obviously have never been part of a listening comparison. You are already predisposed to believe there will be no difference. So you are ideal. I have had many guys like you over. I don't even have to tell them anything. I just swap something out and let them listen. It has been proven many times over that cables make a difference, just like it has been proven to be a fact that the earth is round, but there are still people that no matter what you tell them will believe it is flat. You sir are simply ignorant of the truth and don't want to believe anything else. If you really want to learn the truth then make a trip to Texas and listen for yourself.
[...]
LG: So explain what was wrong with the null test. Don't just exclaim it "was a joke" or that he doesn't know how to do it. "He plugged in the power cord, played a song, and recorded the generated audio signal. He repeated for the 2nd power cable. Then he inverted the wave so that opposite waves cancel out, and he was left with a flat line; no difference; identical." What's wrong with this procedure exactly huh?
DR: No it is not how he thinks it is. Noise levels are not fixed. They vary. If you look at the noise levels, they bounce all over the place and are different from one millisecond to the next. If you take a measurement and then a second one using the exact same everything, then reverse the polarity on it and lay it over itself then you will not get a null of the noise levels. Some of the noise will happen to arrive at the same time and be nulled, but most of it will not. Some of it will already be out of phase and reversing it puts it in phase. So you get a peak. If done properly you get a greater range of noise when doing a null test. He didn't get anything. He literally has no idea what he is doing.
LG: "If done properly you get a greater range of noise" No you don't. The Topping A90 he used is rated: <0.000055% THD+N & 145dB DNR. The RME ADI-2 Pro FS he used also has similar specs. Nothing out of the ordinary with his noise/distortion figures. It's exactly what you would expect.
"He didn't get anything.". Because the two signals were measurably identical; noise was down ~140dB and he nulled down to 94 dB. Anything above that is IDENTICAL. Which is again what you would expect when comparing a normal power cable vs a snake oil power cable. No significant difference. To be able to hear a difference, you'd have to be able to differentiate noise down 140dB, which no human could possibly do.
DR: No, you still don't get it. The noise won't all cancel out even if you use the same gear and cable as the noise levels are variable and won't line up. For the "null test" he didn't even show the noise levels he was measuring on either measurement. When he actually did measure noise levels he showed a 20db reduction in noise levels using our cable and that was in the audible band. He didn't even measure it above 20kHz where the differences would have been very significant. Again, he does not know what he is doing and anyone gullible enough to believe him also has no understanding of it.
LG: The null test is the noise measurement. If the 2 files are identical and are nulled, you're left with a straight line; 0, no difference. Any noise will be deviation from 0. You don't understand this?
DR: Yes, if you do a null test and you aren't left with the noise then you haven't done it right. The noise levels are there and will be there despite the null test because from one measurement to the next (even using the same everything) will be completely different. The noise levels are not the same from one measurement to the next.
LG: He nulled @ -94 dB ................. So any noise below 94dB treshold is eliminated. That's why the noise down ~140dB is not showing; which is pretty much the limit of the testing gear he was using; aka; not differences due to power cables, differences due to inherent noise of DAC, pre-amp, etc. As I asked earlier, you think you can distinguish noise down 140dB or down 94dB??? The proof is in the pudding. All those differences which are so easy to hear suddenly vanish under blind conditions.
DR: He did not properly conduct the test. Did you happen to notice that he was measuring noise levels before and even charter the levels? Then suddenly when he did the null test he showed no noise levels at all? You are right about one thing though. The proof is in the pudding. On a system like ours it is so obvious that even a skeptic like you will notice the difference in the first few seconds. You are also not going to learn anything by bantering with an industry professional over the Internet. If you really want to learn something then come on down to Texas and just be prepared to listen.
LG: ` Then suddenly when he did the null test he showed no noise levels at all? " Answered multiple times: "He nulled @ -94 dB". That's why you don't see the -140dB noise.
Let me give you an analogy. 2 blocks have to be the same size, up to 1/1000th of a mm, otherwise you'll get visible defects. Measuring tool is +/- 1/1000000 mm. You measure cube 1, you get 100.0000002341 mm, measure cube 2, you get 100.0000009741 Will you get visible defects? How do you know? Answer: difference > 1/1000mm? Lets cut <1/10000mm since it's irrelevant, then subtract to see the difference.. 100.000000 - 100.000000 = 0 = SAME. No visible defect. That's what he did, difference in noise is insignificant at -100dB, let alone -140dB, so he cut it off before the null test.
DR: Yeah, all of that is stupid. He is just chopping off all of the data and claiming it is insignificant. How can it be insignificant while making a notable audible difference? He really has no idea what he is doing.
LG: [...] The 96dB was actually a reference to the 16bit format "An 8-bit signal has an SNR of 48dB, 16-bit hits 96dB". So any noise -140dB is well past the audible range as you can imagine. [...] all noise is ~ -140dB, makes absolutely no difference as no human could identify a power cable from that noise. Measurable noise that far surpasses human hearing & ability of devices to accurately reproduce this unfathomably small noise figure..
DR: You (like him) are theorizing what can and can't be heard. You can't base anything on conjecture, and preconceived belief. My position (on the other hand) is based on facts, and the audible differences are clear and easy to hear. .
LG: Allegedly clear to hear, yet anytime anyone attempts a proper DBT test those clear and easy to hear differences ironically vanish. If the dynamic range of a 16bit CD is 96dB and the noise is 50dB below that... It's evident that the audio signal generated by the DAC is the same for the 2 power cables; proven by the null test >-96dB (cd resolution; data). -140dB is the gear's SNR rating. So if there was a difference to hear, it wouldn't be in the reproduced music / sound, as it was proven to be identical, it would have to be in the noise, which no transducer is accurate enough to accurately reproduce anyhow, be it that it is so low. These are the facts. Correct? Or was anything above incorrect, and if so why/how?
DR: Still going back to that double blind test huh? You still think that someone can swap out cables and not know which is which? Again not necessary. We do blind testing all the time and it instantly confirms the differences. The test was conducted improperly on every level. He cropped out the results. He had to. His actual measurements of the cable itself showed a 20db reduction in noise. The differences that it presents in the music is in the sound stage size, imaging layering, space between instruments, separation in the sound stage, etc. You aren't going to hear that in a compressed YouTube file through a set of headphones. He was even listening with headphones. Total stupidity....
LG: The info from the CD is identically reproduced by the DAC in both cases. Identical. So everything you describe cannot be different. Everything we know about transducer technology confirms this. Yet, somehow, you seem to pretend like it's not the case.
"coil moves back and forth inside the magnetic field as the current passing through it alternates in direction with the signal applied" This signal is identical; as demonstrated by the null test. Right?
Anyhow, you obviously have a horse in this race, and we'll obviously never reach an agreement. The only way you'll convince me is by demonstrating that you can hear difference; a proper DBT test. And like I mentioned, 3rd party (guy that switches the cable) can be hidden or in another room; so he has no possible interaction between the tester & listener. Because obviously, all of the 'arguments' you've put forth so far have not been convincing in the least so far.
DR: It just doesn't work they way you think. You can't even find two DAC's that sound the same. You can change the way they sound just by changing the power supply, internal filters, etc. You can even change the way they sound by filtering everything out above 20kHz.
LG: He used the same DAC in his test; he just switched the power cable.
-- end -- no more DR replies.
