Andrew Jones’s new speaker brand - Jones and Cerreta

[amirm]

If the speaker is well designed, having "reasonable off-axis" as you put it, then those minority who have a certain preference can go to town and EQ it.

That's it really. EQ is mandatory to correct bass response. Once you deploy that, it is trivial to then dial in the slope across the full audible range to taste. Or maybe have a couple.

 

[amirm]

I cannot imagine a product being designed over tens to hundreds of hours of sketches, modeling, analysis, component testing, etc. and then built, and then not testing the hell out of it.

It is bewildering that this requires explanation.

Not at all. We have decades of research on what makes a speaker to sound good. Deviating from that better have a hard core research project behind it, not "testing the hell out of it."

For things like distortion, bass extension, etc. sure. But for tonality, go with what we know now. Then sure, listen to it as well. But don't let that ad-hoc testing lead you to create a messed up response.

 

[PGansz]

Not at all. We have decades of research on what makes a speaker to sound good. Deviating from that better have a hard core research project behind it, not "testing the hell out of it."

For things like distortion, bass extension, etc. sure. But for tonality, go with what we know now. Then sure, listen to it as well. But don't let that ad-hoc testing lead you to create a messed up response.

I expect all manufacturers to thoroughly test their products. I am absolutely suggesting distortion, spl capability, hot and cold weather, humidity, electrical connections, and the way it sounds in multiple rooms (with knowledge of the room's characteristics). Why, because I want the manufacturer to say, this product is recommended to be used as "x", in conditions "y and z", when the sun sets, and wind blows north.

Every piece of the equation helps consumers. I am not arguing about tonality, but I still maintain 80/20 rules will always prevail in business.

Edit: maybe even a drop test too - we'd all like to know how solid an object is when we buy, right? Especially those of us with little kids!

 

[PristineSound]

Celebrity power and brand recognition is a real thing. I try my best to not let it play Jedi mind tricks on me, but alas, I still fall for it every now and then.

But I am not falling for some arbitrary, subjective "voicing" on a speaker's tonal balance (done by one person nevertheless) to tell me that such FR adjustment is deemed "right" or "accurate." That's just crazy.

 

[MattHooper]

According to his subjective and objective review, he liked the 8 better due to flatter response overall and much cleaner in the top octave. He also claimed that the 888 was the best speaker overall he has tested and in their price range, FWIW

Not that it matters either way for my point, but in his V10 review, Erin states that if he were to retire from reviewing he thinks these are the speakers he would buy, and he made it very clear he personally rates them as the number 2 best speaker he has reviewed behind the KEF blade meta. Pretty high praise from Erin!

 

[Everett T]

Not that it matters either way for my point, but in his V10 review, Erin states that if he were to retire from reviewing he thinks these are the speakers he would buy, and he made it very clear he personally rates them as the number 2 best speaker he has reviewed behind the KEF blade meta. Pretty high praise from Erin!

I am in agreement with you, just was pointing out what I had read about original 10. I missed the other review and am going to read it later. I was surprised by his 888 comments but with the qualifiers and being limited to what he has reviewed, I can see where it makes sense now.

 

[Ktacos]

@Arindal has strong conviction that measurements are not good enough to tell the story of a speaker, and he professes to have vast experience with empirical testing. I understand that he cannot share that data here because it is proprietary, which is unfortunate, but--and perhaps you've already done so and I've missed it--I am interested in your opinion of his heterodox (on ASR) views.

They sure do say a lot of things.

I can't help but feel like the 'there are unmeasurables' crowd are just people who hit a wall because they were either not smart enough to connect the dots, or just too lazy to keep going and understand the topic further. Perhaps their ego needs audio reproduction to have some sort of mystical element to it. Who knows. I do know the conversation with them goes the same every time.

1. There are unmeasurables!
2. What are they?
3. Proceeds to list either made up stuff, or things that we already know how to measure.

 

[Arindal]

One reference standard instrument to me is acoustic guitar. For instance, if a recording of steel-string acoustic guitar does not have the type of timbre I associate with the real thing - to me, a sense of luscious shimmering harmonics, and often the combination of the woody resonance of the soundboard and contribution of the body, which to my ears often adds a bit of a warm, woody, golden tone

Everyone is free to choose own reference points and preferred instruments. The question is, if what you hear with one acoustic guitar on one recording, will translate to thousands of different recordings. I personally have my doubts, as guitars from recording perspective tend to offer low SPL, very transient enveloping curve and comparably low level of higher harmonics. The sound on the recording is very microphone- and room-dependent, while in practice it almost never sounds unrealistic, harsh or annoying.

But I have in my house the Neumann KH120II, it is as flat as it can be on axis. The directivity is very good, although not as good as, say the Ascilab or a KEF Blade and Reference, but in the world of speakers, it's terrific

These are all examples of speakers which are indeed linear on axis, but all show a severaly colorated off-axis response in this or that way. and window of angles So if you take balanced off-axis behavior as seriously as AJ (or other developers), you would certainly not design or buy such a product.

If you find the sound terrific with all recordings, well, who am I to tell you that it sounds wrong? For others who wonder why concert hall reverb sounds so lower midrange-heavy and dull, instruments lack enveloping ´air´ in the treble reverb, phantom sources of singers are detached from their reverb, almost like monaural sources of a pop recording singing in a perceived vacuum, well, I can offer an explanation and maybe an alternative.

Every single track I throw at it, it sounds terrific unless the source material is trash.

How do you define that the source material is trash, is you have not heard it on speakers with a balanced indirect soundfield in the room? And is this ´trash´ applicable to just a limited number of recordings?

I don't know how you can "voice" one singular speaker for two music genres with opposing subjectively desired EQ curves.

It is a long and iterative process. The key is not to EQ a speaker for one specific recording to make it meet exactly your taste of tonal balance on axis - that is the job of the mastering engineer. And would certainly lead to other recordings, in which the mastering engineer shares your personal vision of tonality, sounding horrible, as the EQ curve is so to speak applied twofold.

The key is to listen to a variety of recordings sounding pretty differently, but all enjoyable and free from speaker-induced flaws (in case this is a hi-fi product) or sufficiently transparent for the mixing engineer (in case of a studio monitor).

I understand if a speaker was "voiced" to compensate off axis non-linearity response, although I would ask why not fix the directivity (yes, I know easy said than done)?

You cannot ´fix´ directivity in the sense of achieving perfectly constant one. Directivity behavior always involved heavy compromises, and I personally find the ones you have listed previously, with increasing directivity index, steps in the most critical band and (lower) midrange heavy reflection tonally, to be subjectively the worst of all. I couldn't stand it even in my bedroom listening to podcasts.

Or KEF saying, their research shows a more aggressive downward tilt is preferable based on the study of multiple test subjects.

Heavy imbalance of the reverb tonality + room properties being far off from usual living room conditions + circle of confusion at play with the choice of recordings? It is difficult for me to imagine an explanation why someone would apply additional downward-tilted EQ on a speaker which already results in like heavy downward-tilted reflection tonally, particularly lacking brilliance and lower treble.

all of these types of "voicing" are still trying to achieve a linear in-room response, regardless of the tilt, not adding any subjective or artistic EQ bumps here and there.

Sorry, but a tilt with broad-banded deviations from the linear curve, is the ultimate form of coloration. Like a tone control you cannot deactivate. And adding downward-tilted EQ to a soundfield which is already heavily downward-tilted, I would not see as a measure to achieve linear in-room response, not at all. Could you elaborate on that goal of linear in-room response further pls?

How do you define which ´bump here and there´ is ´subjective/artistic´, and which is meant to aim for a more balanced tonality?

 

[Ktacos]

He's obviously making a good income, and knows how to spread it around.

To get a forum mod / owner to blatantly violate forum rules by posting PR for his commercial ready-made speaker in a non-commercial DIY (sub)forum - that's quite a feat of duplicity, and was obviously well paid for:

Andrew Jones next loudspeaker

https://www.stereonet.com/news/jones-and-cerreta-loudspeakers-break-cover dave

www.diyaudio.com

I'm so glad I left that dumpster of a community.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

They sure do say a lot of things.

I can't help but feel like the 'there are unmeasurables' crowd are just people who hit a wall because they were either not smart enough to connect the dots, or just too lazy to keep going and understand the topic further. Perhaps their ego needs audio reproduction to have some sort of mystical element to it. Who knows. I do know the conversation with them goes the same every time.

1. There are unmeasurables!
2. What are they?
3. Proceeds to list either made up stuff, or things that we already know how to measure.

I don't know, but I definitely get the impression that @Arindal at least is plenty smart

 

[RexrothPigeon]

The "food" in this case is the music itself. We are talking about what plate you serve it on. If that plate adds flavor of its own, then you better have a hell of a justification why that is the case.

Would you buy food from a chef that didn't lick every plate before serving?
/s

 

[Mnyb]

I expect all manufacturers to thoroughly test their products. I am absolutely suggesting distortion, spl capability, hot and cold weather, humidity, electrical connections, and the way it sounds in multiple rooms (with knowledge of the room's characteristics). Why, because I want the manufacturer to say, this product is recommended to be used as "x", in conditions "y and z", when the sun sets, and wind blows north.

Every piece of the equation helps consumers. I am not arguing about tonality, but I still maintain 80/20 rules will always prevail in business.

Edit: maybe even a drop test too - we'd all like to know how solid an object is when we buy, right? Especially those of us with little kids!

Professional monitor manufacturer sugest use cases and listening distances . And have different models for different purposes.

I would want similar for home speakers home speakers manufacturers are pretty vague ( to not limit sales ) but it would help if they suggested a listening distance they sure had one when they developed the product .

 

[Newman]

The most enlightening aspect of the last 100 or so posts in this thread has been that it has exposed those who believe that Guru Speak is a Higher Truth. That audio science only gets a speaker so far (a kind of robotic, formulaic sound), then the finishing 'human touch' with Guru Polish really transports it to the next level.

To believe so is a delusion. A delusion that the supplier marketplace wants us to have. A delusion, indeed, that many consumers want themselves to have, too. And as Arindal so hastily reminds us, we are free to choose that path. Free as a bird.

But don't come in here and try to sell the magic pudding as real magic, or its chef as a wizard. Not if you don't like reality checks.

cheers

 

[Pearljam5000]

What speaker brands only use science and measurements to design speakers without listening to them?

 

[Mnyb]

Listening test are ofcourse used even at the most scientific of speaker manufacturers ? But maybe not in that Guru way

I suppose you can reach impasses where choices had to made between different compromises, but I assume they set up a more rigorous testing protocol.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I think all speaker manufacturers should rely on measurements, but as a final step, they should all hire 79-year-old men to listen to them and make sure they sound good.

 

[Endibol]

While relying on his ears when it comes to finding the subjectively best compromise between existing technical imperfections, doing listening tests with a whole lot of different recordings to ensure the subjective results are as consistent as possible.

I am not sure relying on AJ’s hearing during the final tuning of his designs would give the best results.
Taking the color of his hair into account I am not sure his treble hearing is up to the job…

 

[Sokel]

Audiophile 101 no-go are strong sibilants.
The famous "tweaking" we read all the time is 80% about that, alone.

Easy to fix anechoicaly with well behaved speakers on/off-axis and some DSP but not all use it and it demands extra gear for analog sources for example.

One example of what they mean about "with ear" tunning.

 

[SigbergAudio]

I'm flabbergasted that anyone here would post in defense of a man of Andrew Jones' advanced age using his own ear to tune speakers for public purchase. Just mind-boggling.

Well, we don't know anything about how well or bad he hears, and and even if he didn't hear much above say 8khz, he would be perfectly capable of voicing a speaker as long as his hearing below that is reasonably linear.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Well, we don't know anything about how well or bad he hears, and and even if he didn't hear much above say 8khz, he would be perfectly capable of voicing a speaker as long as his hearing below that is reasonably linear.

The Guru is not bound by the frailties of flesh as we mortals are lmao