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Andrew Jones’s new speaker brand - Jones and Cerreta

Let's put audiophile mythologies aside for a moment, "get the gear, try it" is a very risky move and a non-sound recommendation, in my opinion.
I'm not sure I see much risk, when reverting to stereo is as easy as reaching for the off button.

What is your "gear"?
I refrain from discussing my gear in detail, just like I refrain from sharing my sighted listening impressions (just in case that is where you are taking this, and if you have been reading my posts for long, you would know why :cool: ). Happy to discuss generically, but I see no reason to sidebar the issues I am discussing into such a personal orientation. I assume you want to take this line of questioning somewhere helpful, but you haven't revealed the point of the exercise.

IMHO my arguments above would still stand on their merit if I still listened exclusively in stereo. I'm discussing audio science and its potential ramifications for our choices, not my opinions or experiences.

What percentage of your stereo listening is upmixed?
Close to 100% for non-musical program, very very roughly half for musical program.

What is your in use upmixing algorithm(s)?
I don't know the algorithms, as they evolve without notification or name change, but the labels are: Dolby Surround at the moment, soon to add Auro 3D (I just need front heights). Nothing esoteric.

If all speakers are not indentical make/model (seemingly most common in real world setups), then what?
The DSP available to me allows me to EQ each speaker individually to a flat frequency response for the direct/anechoic/first-arrival sound, above the bass. So I did.

And to be clear, what extra channels are you advocating to others?
Minimum for upmixing?
Optimum for upmixing?
I'm not, actually. But in general, I get the impression the upmixers make effective use of heights, when you have them. But that's just from personal sighted listening. I'm reluctantly volunteering it because you asked. Happy to retract it if challenged in the slightest.

What do you predict would be the percentage of permanent converted upmixing uptakers, based on your recommendations?
I don't understand the 'permanent' aspect. The off button is right there.

Anyway, like I said in post #1125, my encouragement of readers to try upmixing is "based on the audio science that I am aware of". I gave little regard to my own experiences when I do so, just like I give little regard to the sighted listening commentary on upmixers in the forums.

In fact, I'm not sure if you asked those questions because you thought I was encouraging people who have no intention of ever listening to anything other than stereo program material, that they should go to all the trouble of implementing a multichannel system simply to experiment with upmixing their stereo? Like I said in post #1125, I am messaging to people who are interested in progressing their audio experience. If someone has shown no interest in, and is in fact committed to showing no interest in the future in, discrete multichannel recordings played as surround or spatial audio, then that person has no interest in even those much more reliable and apparent benefits. I would never suggest to such people that they go to the expense of moving from stereo to multichannel home gear purely to upmix their stereo material, that will only ever be stereo material, including future purchases.

cheers
 
I'm not sure I see much risk, when reverting to stereo is as easy as reaching for the off button.

You can't see the financial risk if the person tries and regrets the buys? Hmm. There's a person here in our Aussie land that I think has spent about 1.5-2.0 mil on two speakers and two mono amplifiers. Consider, the financial risk if that person upgrades to more than stereo speakers and it doesn't work out. Consider the financial risk to everyone!

I refrain from discussing my gear in detail, just like I refrain from sharing my sighted listening impressions (just in case that is where you are taking this, and if you have been reading my posts for long, you would know why :cool: ). Happy to discuss generically, but I see no reason to sidebar the issues I am discussing into such a personal orientation. I assume you want to take this line of questioning somewhere helpful, but you haven't revealed the point of the exercise.

An interesting point that Andrew Jones brought up, is that research doesn't actually produce a product. Being a developer (and he's been a researcher), is that one actually has to finish a product and reveal it to the world. If you think of us enthusiasts, we research and develop too. We research what we think we want, then put together all of the pieces to develop our own product, our own systems. So you've obviously done plenty of research, but what product have you developed? Common, don't be shy, reveal it to the world. Why? It would give you more perceived credibility when you give advice, and you do that a lot. Honesty and transparency are core values. So be honest and transparent with your own product.

Close to 100% for non-musical program, very very roughly half for musical program.

There's some honesty, I perceived that your musical program upmixing was double half. IMO and I assume others, half/half is not exactly inspiring, especially from someone as yourself who actively advises and promotes it to others.

I'm not, actually. But in general, I get the impression the upmixers make effective use of heights, when you have them. But that's just from personal sighted listening. I'm reluctantly volunteering it because you asked. Happy to retract it if challenged in the slightest.

Vague. Do you agree that 4 channel upmixing is the minimum for improvements to source width and envelopment?

I don't understand the 'permanent' aspect. The off button is right there.

The 'permanent' aspect is that the audio enthusiast tries upmixing and then doesn't bin it, that they upmix permanently.

I would never suggest to such people that they go to the expense of moving from stereo to multichannel home gear purely to upmix their stereo material, that will only ever be stereo material, including future purchases.

Perhaps you never explicitly mentioned this, but I feel like you've backpedaled here and that upmixing was an instant "slam dunk" for every single enthusiast. Anyhow, I agree on your now more clear position.
 
You can't see the financial risk if the person tries and regrets the buys? Hmm. There's a person here in our Aussie land that I think has spent about 1.5-2.0 mil on two speakers and two mono amplifiers. Consider, the financial risk if that person upgrades to more than stereo speakers and it doesn't work out. Consider the financial risk to everyone!
He can afford millions on two speakers and can't afford thousands on a few more? That's ridiculous. There is zero connection between my explanations of the potential benefits, drawn from science, and people taking financial risks. Everyone makes their own decisions FFS, you are being absurd trying to put it on me if they are interested in next level audio experiences and make a bad decision on personal finances. I think you should pull back.

An interesting point that Andrew Jones brought up, is that research doesn't actually produce a product. Being a developer (and he's been a researcher), is that one actually has to finish a product and reveal it to the world. If you think of us enthusiasts, we research and develop too. We research what we think we want, then put together all of the pieces to develop our own product, our own systems. So you've obviously done plenty of research, but what product have you developed? Common, don't be shy, reveal it to the world. Why? It would give you more perceived credibility when you give advice, and you do that a lot. Honesty and transparency are core values. So be honest and transparent with your own product.
This doesn't even make sense. I share the findings of Toole, and I am criticised for not designing speakers like Andrew Jones or developing mega-products in my lounge room? Rejected.

There's some honesty, I perceived that your musical program upmixing was double half.
You may have assumed, but you sure didn't perceive.

IMO and I assume others, half/half is not exactly inspiring, especially from someone as yourself who actively advises and promotes it to others.
I am explaining the science. I am not exaggerating it. If the science itself looks like promotion to you, then it's doing that by itself.

You are trying to personalise it to me, and somehow attack me for it, and I reject that. We are about to finish this conversation, because you are misreading me pretty severely and this is my one post to make that clear.

Vague. Do you agree that 4 channel upmixing is the minimum for improvements to source width and envelopment?
I agree that Toole's evidence suggests so, as long as the 2 added speakers are positioned along the side walls. I don't have a personal opinion.

The 'permanent' aspect is that the audio enthusiast tries upmixing and then doesn't bin it, that they upmix permanently.
OK, so you are asking me to predict what percentage of people who try upmixing will never ever turn it off? I have no idea, especially since, as I keep explaining, AV units are auto-updating without telling us anything about the changes. Permanently, you say!

Perhaps you never explicitly mentioned this, but I feel like you've backpedaled here and that upmixing was an instant "slam dunk" for every single enthusiast. Anyhow, I agree on your now more clear position.
My position is the same as before. You simply misread it earlier.
 
I sincerely hope people aren't taking financial risks on hi-fi gear! If anyone reading this is considering doing so, I advise them to resist the urge.

Andrew Robinson has admitted to it, this hobby can go towards bankruptcy.

How I spent $100,000 and still ended up with nothing.​


You were right about my financial mistakes.​



And think further about what this hobby can do to mental health and relationships.
Newman, this is not about you.
 
Andrew Robinson has admitted to it, this hobby can bankrupt
hobbies don't bankrupt people; people bankrupt people (I kid)

but seriously, nobody should take financial risks for a hobby, that's just a terrible idea and anyone who does so probably shouldn't handle money.
 
He can afford millions on two speakers and can't afford thousands on a few more? That's ridiculous. There is zero connection between my explanations of the potential benefits, drawn from science, and people taking financial risks. Everyone makes their own decisions FFS, you are being absurd trying to put it on me if they are interested in next level audio experiences and make a bad decision on personal finances. I think you should pull back.

If you try to think about the mind of a classic Audiophile, do you think this kind of person would spend just spend a few thousand on extra channels?
Some systems (such as the one I'm referring to) have probably more money spent on a single power cable than I've spent on 4 X Perlisten subwoofers.

This doesn't even make sense. I share the findings of Toole, and I am criticised for not designing speakers like Andrew Jones or developing mega-products in my lounge room? Rejected.

No not at all. The point is when you advise someone to spend money on more gear (extra speakers and electronics) but you won't share the simple courtesy of the details of your personal system, well, you're asking a lot and giving little. It costs you nothing, no money and very little time. I'm curious at what your entire (up-mixing) system is, far out, I'm so terrible. Your refusal comes across as intellectually elitist and snobby, like I'm not even good enough to know.

I am explaining the science.

And you do a good job of it.
Were the listening tests conducted with all speakers the same make/model or mixed?
If mixed, how mixed?

Theoretical is one thing, practical another.
E.g. If one has X amount of $$$ to spend, is it best to spread that budget out on 2 channels or 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 15 or more?

OK, so you are asking me to predict what percentage of people who try upmixing will never ever turn it off? I have no idea, especially since, as I keep explaining, AV units are auto-updating without telling us anything about the changes. Permanently, you say!

If you have no idea, then why advise that people spend money on extra channels? This is different than explaining the science.
 
if you’re larping as a psychologist to psychoanalyze an imaginary person’s spending choices i think the plot is well and truly out of earshot
 
I feel the financial risk of the person spending millions on stereo could be the realization that it was all not worth it after going to a 10 times less expensive multichannel setup in a treated room.

SCNR
 
if you’re larping as a psychologist to psychoanalyze an imaginary person’s spending choices i think the plot is well and truly out of earshot

Well I don't think I'm doing that, but how can I be sure? If I was doing that, I would tell that imaginary person to drink a cup of UHPC.
 
I feel the financial risk of the person spending millions on stereo could be the realization that it was all not worth it after going to a 10 times less expensive multichannel setup in a treated room.

SCNR

That's actually the opposite of a finanical risk, assuming they could sell their multi million dollar current gear, and then purchase your proposal, with plenty of change left over.
 
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True, but I'd actually expect the processing to reduce the audibility at a given level setting rather than increase it. Have you confirmed with measurements that the surround channels are in fact 40dB quieter than the fronts at the main listening position given an uncorrelated input?
In any case, if you have the time and motivation, you might try to do a blind listening test (ABX or other suitable scheme).
I blind tested myself on this and I didn't pass. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the summary, Newman. I haven't been following this thread, but since my name is involved, perhaps a brief clarification is appropriate. At this late stage in my life I reflect on things somewhat simply - it is the big things that matter most, so getting those right is essential. After that one can seek all manner of "inner voices, detail, resolution imaging and soundstage" issues.

My research began with the notion that sound quality was the starting point - voices and instruments should sound natural, uncolored, and loudspeakers of that era all had strong "personalities". It was gratifying that in organized double-blind equal-loudness, multiple-loudspeaker comparison tests listeners reliably preferred loudspeakers that exhibited the fewest audible resonances. In measurement terms this translates into what is best described as "technical excellence" - flat and smooth direct sound, followed by similarly smooth off-axis sounds that appear as early reflections in small rooms. The tests used single loudspeakers - mono listening - because listeners were most sensitive to defects when listening in that mode. The highest rated loudspeakers in mono listening were also the highest rated in stereo and multichannel listening when sound quality was the criterion. This finding was repeated in loudspeakers having a variety of directional radiation patterns. In these tests the room and the recording were constant factors - loudspeakers were the variable and sound quality alone was the criterion of excellence.

However, when the "play" button is pressed at home all loudspeakers, including the "best" are at the mercy of the listening room a low frequencies - about 30% of our overall opinions of sound quality - and this must be dealt with in every playback setup or we are not comparing apples with apples. Two chapters in my books provide explanations and remedies.

BUT, as soon as one starts to judge soundstage and imaging the recording becomes part of the evaluation, and recordings exhibit enormous variability. They are created in control rooms by recording engineers who add their preferences and judgments to the final artistic product, while listening to their loudspeakers in their control rooms, not yours. These days a high percentage of monitoring is done in the direct sound field, either by using close (near-field) listening or by listening in acoustically dead, reflection-controlled rooms. So, what is heard during the creation of the art may be very different from the playback conditions in homes (or earphones).

Add to these significant uncertainties the basic fact that stereo is a directionally and spatially compromised format - fact not opinion. So, the recording engineers do what they can to create a directionally and spatially interesting artistic product, and consumers do what they can to achieve satisfaction with what they hear. These two objectives can be very different. As a result, we end up with strong subjective preferences for loudspeakers having different directional properties. No one of them is "perfect" or "correct". They are what they are: post processing alternatives that provide listeners with distinctive perceptual effects in terms of soundstage and imaging, spaciousness, and probably other subtleties. They are not right or wrong in a technical/moral sense, but they were not used when the art was created. If they provide satisfaction to the listener, that is sufficient justification. End of story.

Beyond this kind of acoustical manipulation of the playback sound field there are multichannel options. In my life's experience of listening to reproduced sound through loudspeakers, the most gratifying experience was a demonstration of an elaborate immersive set up by the creator and playing recordings done by the creator. They were stunning in their realism, there was no sweet spot, and I was in a concert hall, a cathedral, or even outdoors with manmade and natural sounds all around. It was a spine tingling experience. I wanted it! It could be reproduced in homes able to accommodate a multichannel setup. But, then, where does one get the source material? What about the colossal existing recorded repertoire in stereo, and more to come? All challenges, but it can be done. Small room resonances remain a challenge, as large performance spaces lack audible resonances in the musical bass frequency range - two ears and a brain cannot easily ignore that or what the eyes see when we are aiming to "transport" ourselves to different venues.

The other impressive playback experience was binaural (dummy head) recordings reproduced through head-tracked, calibrated headphones or through crosstalk-cancelled loudspeakers. Headphones remove the listening room entirely, and crosstalk cancelling with some control of bass resonances in the room can significantly "remove" the walls. It can be very gratifying. Again, where do we get the recordings of the artists and music we like? I have a feeling that this situation will improve because headphone listening is so popular, superb sounding headphones are available at affordable prices. Stereo through headphones is not stereo, but fortunately the digital post processing necessary to translate conventional stereo and multichannel "loudspeaker" recordings into more rewarding headphone experiences exist and more are in progress.

Upmixing stereo to multichannel is a lottery. When it works, it can be - in my opinion - a tasteful embellishment of the sense of envelopment, of being in a large space. But that requires the right up mixer combined with the right recording, both meeting the expectations of the listener and the program being auditioned. In my experience, a good upmixer (e.g. the long gone Lexicon algorithm) that does not destroy the soundstage while delivering delayed surround information to loudspeakers to the side (even 60 degrees to the side is enough) was rewarding. Now, it is a greater challenge, but by keeping the upmixed information at a low, background, level, it is still useful for certain kinds of music. It can easily be turned off, so it is an option to embellishing stereo that does not force one into choosing loudspeakers that are always in the delivery path, and frankly, are less rewarding (my personal opinion - let the flames begin :().

Cheers, Floyd
Interesting, as always. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights.:)

Speaking of mixes and multi-channel audio, here is a thread on the subject:


But then again, it depends on the recording. It can turn out really well if done right—like on Muddy Waters' superb album "Folk Singer":)
Screenshot_2026-09-08_094154.945.jpgScreenshot_2026-09-08_094237.427.jpg
(Gemini AI)
Naturally, without the foundation of Muddy Waters’ superb vocal ability, it wouldn’t have turned out nearly as well. It may be an obvious point, but still.

An example from that album:
My Home Is In The Delta

 
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Interesting, as always. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights.:)

Speaking of mixes and multi-channel audio, here is a thread on the subject:


But then again, it depends on the recording. It can turn out really well if done right—like on Muddy Waters' superb album "Folk Singer":)
View attachment 557198View attachment 557199
(Gemini AI)
Naturally, without the foundation of Muddy Waters’ superb vocal ability, it wouldn’t have turned out nearly as well. It may be an obvious point, but still.

An example from that album:
My Home Is In The Delta

Very good example of near perfect sound. And this with Ampex 300 or 350 tape machine with recording vacuum tube amplifiers. At 15"/sec f-response was 30 - 15000 Hz at +- 2 dB. SNR 70 dB when full track (mono). I restored some of the amplifiers and there is some slight noise and also slight distortion. So if this record sounds so good why care about 0.01 % distortion today? Of course Muddy Waters record was done with only a few instruments thus not so complex interacting like a big band.
 
hobbies don't bankrupt people; people bankrupt people (I kid)

but seriously, nobody should take financial risks for a hobby, that's just a terrible idea and anyone who does so probably shouldn't handle money.
Many audiophiles seems a little obsessed OCD etc . At least a large swath of the ones I've meet irl including myself sligthly neurodivergent with a "special interest" that takes over much of life ? yes exactly the person this industry prays upon ?
Many have disproportianally expensive gear compared to other life spendings ? In the US with costly healthinsurance and school for the kids costing money it could do real harm to ones family ?

I compare my spending with having a motorcycle equally useless, but fun if you have the interest , so that's the level of spending I justify for myself :)
 
Many audiophiles seems a little obsessed OCD etc . At least a large swath of the ones I've meet irl including myself sligthly neurodivergent with a "special interest" that takes over much of life ? yes exactly the person this industry prays upon ?
Many have disproportianally expensive gear compared to other life spendings ? In the US with costly healthinsurance and school for the kids costing money it could do real harm to ones family ?

I compare my spending with having a motorcycle equally useless, but fun if you have the interest , so that's the level of spending I justify for myself :)
I have direct experience, one particular customer, it was harrowing, to find oneself in financial difficulty because of a stereo.
Keith
 
The sad thing about all that is that it's not declining, just changing form.

The "ExPeNsiVe" older gear spending has just been replaced by the "latest and greatest" (with no audible improvements, at all*), almost disposable stuff and at the end of the day (over time) the bill stays the same.

*I exclude bigger/better speakers, that's audible.
 
There have always been competent, relatively inexpensive components, but for the last fifty years the whole ‘industry’ has at been at best disingenuous and at worst propagating outright lies, ie the perpetual ‘upgrade’.
Keith
 
There have always been competent, relatively inexpensive components, but for the last fifty years the whole ‘industry’ has at been at best disingenuous and at worst propagating outright lies, ie the perpetual ‘upgrade’.
Keith
Yes, cheaper gear were around as well.

But, do you remember anyone having 4 CD players for example a few years earlier?
It's almost the norm having 3-4 DAC for example (I have two! ) , and then some for door-stop (even if they are not heavy enough for the task :p )
 
There have always been competent, relatively inexpensive components, but for the last fifty years the whole ‘industry’ has at been at best disingenuous and at worst propagating outright lies, ie the perpetual ‘upgrade’.
Keith
yes you where supposed to buy something of bent sheet metal with 18wpc from great Britain made by a man in a shed ;) instead of perfectly functional and beautifully made japanese electronics with 2*power for 1/2 the price or less .

Worst thing everyone including myself fell for these marketing campaigns !?
 
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