Andrew Jones’s new speaker brand - Jones and Cerreta

[RexrothPigeon]

The deviation from “ideal” measurements that these speakers may have are most likely intentional and/or deliberate compromises needed to optimize other parameters.

Could be, but since they don't share measurements, all you can do is guess.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I personally would never pay this kind of money for a speaker with no published measurements. That said, I personally wouldn’t bet money Andrew Jones didn’t build a killer speaker. I’m sorry, but reputation based on past success is worth a lot! Even if it tilts tonality when it is measured.

Anyone with money can buy a Klippel. Hire a good engineer. Is that the criteria for building a great speaker? I love science but when the art leaves the equation we are left with white toast that everyone likes.

The art that interests me is the music. Speakers are not art to me, and the ones that try to be are bad art. Speakers are engineering.

 

[Mort]

Anyone with money can buy a Klippel. Hire a good engineer. Is that the criteria for building a great speaker?

How is it not?

 

[levimax]

Speakers are not art to me, and the ones that try to be are bad art. Speakers are engineering.

The art is the trade offs the engineers have to make, speakers are not like DAC's where there is nothing audible that can be improved and there are no physical or monetary constraints. For example efficiency vs extention vs physical size vs cost all have to be traded off against each other, there is no "right answer" so it becomes art not science.

 

[DMill]

The art that interests me is the music. Speakers are not art to me, and the ones that try to be are bad art. Speakers are engineering.

It’s a fair statement I can agree upon on many levels. Perhaps it’s my age being in my middle 50s and seeing equipment that really spoke to me was a thing for 40 years. It plussed my appreciation for the music. But with your thinking I suppose we are reduced to a lamp plug being pretty much the same as any other in your world. And your lamp must be 3500k for best reading. But maybe I like it a little darker?

 

[PGAMiami]

The art is the trade offs the engineers have to make, speakers are not like DAC's where there is nothing audible that can be improved and there are no physical or monetary constraints. For example efficiency vs extention vs physical size vs cost all have to be traded off against each other, there is no "right answer" so it becomes art not science.

You hit the nail on the head. Engineering is the art of making smart compromises. Particularly in the case of speakers, how they interact with your room is also very important.

As Andrew has explained to me, our ears work differently than measurement microphones. That’s not to say he’s ignoring the measurements. Instead this is about understanding the psychoacoustics. For example, a deep but narrow dip is less audible than a wide shallow dip. And then don’t forget that the speaker and room become a system. Anechoic measurements by definition are not looking at the room interaction.

If you think for a second that designing a driver and crossover combination that hits a particular target curve is too challenging for Andrew, then you’re greatly underestimating his talent.

It doesn’t look like they are targeting studios with these. Very likely targeting audiophiles that don’t place much emphasis on measurements. But I can’t imagine the first speaker that actually bears Andrew’s name will not sound and measure extremely well.

 

[Mort]

How much of that art is audible? Is that desirable?

 

[DMill]

How much of that art is audible? Is that desirable?

Depends on what you like I can’t ignore we can EQ a flat speaker to our liking. But Everyone not on this site just wants a nice sounding speaker. Damn I hate measuring my room! I have 50 more important things in my life.

 

[DMill]

Just to bring this more on topic. These speakers by Jones are worth looking at. Both from an objective and subjective point of view. My point initially was to not to be argumentative. There are a number of respected speaker designers on this site. I’m just an ad guy. Do you need a Klippel now? Or do you give Jones a pass without measurements? I ask you?

 

[levimax]

How much of that art is audible? Is that desirable?

For a DAC once you get to 100 dB SINAD the only thing you can do to improve a DAC is make it cheaper or add some features, nothing you do to it is going to be audible. Speakers are not even close to being audibly transparent and have relatively massive FR non linearities especially LF roll off and distortion as well as off axis differences which interact with rooms differently. They are also big and and heavy and expensive and potentially ugly. This means most of the trade offs made by a speaker designer are audible and no it is not desirable but until speakers can be the size and price of a DAC with 20 to 20 Khz flat response on and off access with vanishing low distortion at 120 dB then we are going to be living with speakers that are audibly compromised.

 

[PGAMiami]

For a DAC once you get to 100 dB SINAD the only thing you can do to improve a DAC is make it cheaper or add some features, nothing you do to it is going to be audible. Speakers are not even close to being audibly transparent and have relatively massive FR non linearities especially LF roll off and distortion as well as off axis differences which interact with rooms differently. They are also big and and heavy and expensive and potentially ugly. This means most of the trade offs made by a speaker designer are audible and no it is not desirable but until speakers can be the size and price of a DAC with 20 to 20 Khz flat response on and off access with vanishing low distortion at 120 dB then we are going to be living with speakers that are audibly compromised.

Spot on. And I can attest first hand that Andrew is exceptionally adept at making and executing these design choices. Customer service is a cut above also.

 

[Mart68]

As Andrew has explained to me, our ears work differently than measurement microphones. That’s not to say he’s ignoring the measurements. Instead this is about understanding the psychoacoustics. For example, a deep but narrow dip is less audible than a wide shallow dip. And then don’t forget that the speaker and room become a system. Anechoic measurements by definition are not looking at the room interaction.

That's basic stuff though and you can't design a commercial speaker for a specific room acoustic (maybe other than accounting for it being placed close to multiple boundaries). We know how anechoic measurements will relate to in room response in any case.

I largely agree with you in that it's unlikely, highly unlikely this is a bad or even a mediocre speaker. Based on his previous form. But all loudspeaker manufacturers should publish their measurements, with an explanation if necessary.
There's no valid excuse for not doing so.

 

[Sokel]

There's no valid excuse for not doing so.

I can think of a possible explanation, and it's far from technical.

Given the target audience and the polarization of the objective vs subjective camps, measurements would trigger said audience negatively.
Although, there are people using tubes and such who also value engineering, etc. I guess it's not the vast majority.
A good narrative works way better for them.

(as does for the objective camp as well, only difference is that the narrative contains numbers and charts as well)

 

[Mnyb]

I can think of a possible explanation, and it's far from technical.

Given the target audience and the polarization of the objective vs subjective camps, measurements would trigger said audience negatively.
Although, there are people using tubes and such who also value engineering, etc. I guess it's not the vast majority.
A good narrative works way better for them.

(as does for the objective camp as well, only difference is that the narrative contains numbers and charts as well)

..and measurements can easily be misinterpreted ? to much tech info is a risk in some minds . But i agree more measurements its up to the brands and sites likes this, and the magazines ? to explain what they mean , that's a bit scarse at the moment thou .

 

[Mart68]

I can think of a possible explanation, and it's far from technical.

Given the target audience and the polarization of the objective vs subjective camps, measurements would trigger said audience negatively.
Although, there are people using tubes and such who also value engineering, etc. I guess it's not the vast majority.
A good narrative works way better for them.

(as does for the objective camp as well, only difference is that the narrative contains numbers and charts as well)

Agree that's the reason, don't agree it's a valid one but the market is where it is.

The designer should be able to defend the choices he's made. No doubt AJ can do that so why not publish? He will have to do that eventually anyway since it's likely either Stereophile or HFN will review and measure them at some point.

 

[Audionaut]

Do you need a Klippel now? Or do you give Jones a pass without measurements? I ask you?

Neither. A Klippel measurement system simply makes the work easier and ensures consistent comparisons.
But of course, it’s still possible to obtain meaningful measurements even without a Klippel NFS and I'm sure Jones measured the speaker.
I think the Klippel NFS also makes it easier for people without a degree in audio engineering to measure and design a loudspeaker that is virtually perfect according to today’s state-of-the-art standards.

 

[Mnyb]

Foremost the Klippel NSF scanner removes the requirement to have a very large anechoic chamber to make high quality measurements !

Even if the Klippel is expensive building an anechoic chamber costs a lot more .

And booking time and renting a chamber is slow and expensive too ?

 

[Sigberg Audio]

I think the Klippel NFS also makes it easier for people without a degree in audio engineering to measure and design a loudspeaker that is virtually perfect according to today’s state-of-the-art standards.

I would suggest that after an initial measurement, figuring out what the best course of action is to improve the measurement is not trivial. The Klippel NFS will not tell you this. So while it makes measuring your speaker easier, the design still requires experience and competence.

Most people would look at their likely far from perfect measurement and go, okay, now what?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I would suggest that after an initial measurement, figuring out what the best course of action is to improve the measurement is not trivial. The Klippel NFS will not tell you this. So while it makes measuring your speaker easier, the design still requires experience and competence.

Most people would look at they're likely far from perfect measurement and go, okay, now what?

As an engineer I understand this completely.
It is always astonishing how many people who showed zero aptitude (or interest in, perhaps) for things scientific when young seem to imagine it is easy when they are adults...

 

[RexrothPigeon]

And booking time and renting a chamber is slow and expensive too ?

and a huge waste of space unless you want to measure speakers out in the boondocks

I saw ascilabs' klippel, on the other hand, and it's in an office space in central seoul, just fills up one utility room