Andrew Jones’s new speaker brand - Jones and Cerreta

[MattHooper]

The Eico HF 81 was basically just a pair of Eico mono HF 12's in a single chassis. I think Eico came out with that amp in the late 50's. In my teeanage audiophile days way back in the '60s, I used a pair of HF 12's for my stereo setup. They were a pretty standard design with a pair of EL84's operated in push pull and using negative feedback. The transformers also had a decent amount of iron in them, allowing the amp to perform pretty well for its time. Much of the low power tube gear out there today is far inferior to the older amps....avoiding any loop feedback, and raising the output impedance to unacceptable levels. In particular, the SET stuff measures very poorly. Given the direct radiator design, dual woofers, bass tuning, etc., I'm guessing that this new AJ speaker is not going to be happy with flea powered tube amps.

In a quixotic mood I sometimes drove my big Thiel 3.7 speakers with the Eico, and was always surprised at how well the Eico performed.

And my favourite combination was the Eico driving my MBL Omni stand mounted speakers (sensitivity 82db/impedance 4ohm).
( I don’t listen super loud).

 

[PristineSound]

First and foremost, the input power must be able to be converted cleanly and without distortion. So it’s not about how much power an amplifier can deliver, but how much usable dynamic range results from that power. A loudspeaker system is only as good as its ability to convert the input electrical energy into linear sound pressure. An inefficient speaker consumes a large portion of the input power without converting it proportionally into acoustic energy, whereas a highly efficient system actually transforms a significantly larger portion of this power into clean, undistorted sound pressure.

To achieve this, the bass range requires a large diaphragm area, sufficient excursion capability resulting in a high displacement volume, and, above all, a driver that remains linear even at large excursions.

A loudspeaker with an average efficiency of 86 dB/W/m requires power levels for high volume ranges that can quickly reach several hundred watts up to about 1,000 watts, while a 96 dB/W/m system achieves the same sound pressure level with just a fraction of that power, typically in the range of around 100 watts. This difference is not merely a matter of efficiency but determines whether the system is still within its linear operating range or has already significantly exceeded it.

In the rarest of cases is a traditional hi-fi speaker even designed to convert such high power into undistorted sound pressure. A large portion of the input energy is converted not into sound but into heat, causing the voice coil to heat up significantly. This immediately alters the driver’s electrical and mechanical parameters, as inductance increases and thermal compression causes efficiency to drop further under load. This means nothing other than that you have to put in more and more power just to achieve even a minimal increase in volume, while distortion increases exponentially at the same time.

In practice, this means that an average hi-fi speaker with moderate efficiency and about one or two 8-inch woofers reaches its limits and distorts audibly precisely when it is supposed to deliver dynamics in the bass range.

The only way to get around this is to sacrifice efficiency in order to achieve deeper bass, and/or to use large bass drivers with a high displacement volume and linear drive.

It is still not possible to consider sound pressure, low-frequency response, cone area, and enclosure size separately, even though many would like to and others imagine it to be exactly that way in reality; but these are all merely parameters that can still only be adjusted within the physically defined limits.

Even if you use a very powerful and clean amplifier—such as a modern Hypex or Purifi module highly regarded by ASR, with several hundred watts of low-distortion output power—the actual limitation remains in the loudspeaker, because what matters is not what the amplifier can deliver, but what the loudspeaker can derive from it in terms of sound pressure in a linear and undistorted manner.

For a speaker with 86 dB/W/m, you must use 10 times more power than for a speaker with 96 dB/W/m. This quickly puts the difference between 100 and 1000 watts into perspective, especially when you factor in some headroom.

This is precisely where the real advantage of highly efficient systems with drivers operating linearly within their “natural” operating range lies, because, first, they consume less power and, second, they usually convert this power in a much less compressed and distortion-free manner.

So not only do they operate at lower power levels, but they also remain stable under load because they can actually convert the supplied energy into linear sound pressure. What matters, then, is not the absolute amplifier power, but how much dynamic range is generated from the power that the speaker can still handle in a controlled and low-distortion manner, because a loudspeaker is, by its very nature, a very poor power converter and, in principle, little more than a sound-emitting complex impedance for the amplifier; even the most efficient loudspeaker systems have efficiencies in the single-digit percentage range.

So, in my opinion, it is still advisable today to select speakers that offer good efficiency and use high-power, linear drivers capable of moving large volumes of air in a controlled and distortion-free manner.

I am not advocating for highly inefficient speakers of course. But there are plenty of speakers that are moderately efficient, with very low distortion and excellent thermal management. Many of which are amazing speakers.

The point I was making is that Andrew Jones went to town to design ultra efficient speakers as if the most powerful amps available today is 15w. Is his priority important for this day in age? Or is it because he is aiming for a certain use case, as someone alluded to perhaps aiming for the demographics using tube amps.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Other than Focal I don't know about any other big brand that is not some small, boutique audiophile company that you only get to see at audio shows, that uses field coil drivers

 

[Audionaut]

Or is it because he is aiming for a certain use case, as someone alluded to perhaps aiming for the demographics using tube amps.

Now that I’ve watched the video, I’d say he put an idea into practice through trial and error—simply because he felt like building a coaxial speaker with field coils.
It was pretty funny to see how he only realized how heavy the driver unit would become while he was actually building it.
He then tried to adapt the bass drivers to the coaxial design, but I don’t think he’ll actually reach 30 Hz at 96 dB/W/m with the woofer design he described in the video. Maybe he’ll scrape 39 Hz in the room—but we’ll see.
After all, the Troubadour is still a prototype, and will it really make it to production?

 

[Audionaut]

Other than Focal I don't know about any other big brand that is not some small, boutique audiophile company that you only get to see at audio shows, that uses field coil drivers

Yes, although the quantity and price (about 130.000 €) of the only model I know (Grande Utopia EM) of in which Focal has implemented this feature make it ideal for such high-end audio shows.

 

[PristineSound]

Now that I’ve watched the video, I’d say he put an idea into practice through trial and error—simply because he felt like building a coaxial speaker with field coils.
It was pretty funny to see how he only realized how heavy the driver unit would become while he was actually building it.
He then tried to adapt the bass drivers to the coaxial design, but I don’t think he’ll actually reach 30 Hz at 96 dB/W/m with the woofer design he described in the video. Maybe he’ll scrape 39 Hz in the room—but we’ll see.
After all, the Troubadour is still a prototype, and will it really make it to production?

I agree, it comes across as if he is building something challenging for the sake of the challenge or he is building something unique for the sake of being unique. From the exotic field coils concentric drivers to a retro design, it's all about being one of a kind.

And the funny thing is, all of that efficiency resulting in low thermal output is more than cancelled by the heat generated by the field coils.

This is more of a lifestyle product if you ask me.

 

[DaaDaa]

I'm thinking this will be in the $30k to $50k range.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Yes, although the quantity and price (about 130.000 €) of the only model I know (Grande Utopia EM) of in which Focal has implemented this feature make it ideal for such high-end audio shows.

That price is for one speaker, not a pair

 

[tineared]

Agree that these seem to be designed "on the fly". I can't get past his building a coaxial driver that can't hold it's own weight without reinforcement from the cabinet.
I'm highly skeptical that these new speakers will measure any better than the SourcePoint V10.
I wonder if Andrew has any of his own money invested in the new company

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Why is it negative to want to build something a certain way, and then do it? The law of Jante apparently isn't just a Scandinavian thing. There are many ways to build a loudspeaker.

Is it necessary to build a field coil driver? Of course not.

Will it be expensive? Probably.

But we don't stand outside the local Lamborghini dealer and shout "It's too expensive! And unreliable! You should sell Toyotas!"
Sometimes somewhat crazy things are built, not because it's the most logical thing to do, but because it's fun and challenging.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Why is it negative to want to build something a certain way, and then do it? The law of Jante apparently isn't just a Scandinavian thing. There are many ways to build a loudspeaker.

Is it necessary to build a field coil driver? Of course not.

Will it be expensive? Probably.

But we don't stand outside the local Lamborghini dealer and shout "It's too expensive! And unreliable! You should sell Toyotas!"
Sometimes somewhat crazy things are built, not because it's the most logical thing to do, but because it's fun and challenging.

A Lambo has performance that is better than 99% of the other cars
So it's not exactly the same

 

[PristineSound]

Why is it negative to want to build something a certain way, and then do it? The law of Jante apparently isn't just a Scandinavian thing. There are many ways to build a loudspeaker.

Is it necessary to build a field coil driver? Of course not.

Will it be expensive? Probably.

But we don't stand outside the local Lamborghini dealer and shout "It's too expensive! And unreliable! You should sell Toyotas!"
Sometimes somewhat crazy things are built, not because it's the most logical thing to do, but because it's fun and challenging.

As a staunch defender of those who worked hard to become rich and/or remain rich even as a relatively poor man myself, I fully believe in a reasonable gluttonous self-spoil for those who can afford it even if I am not one of them. If there are those building Lamborghini, good job, if there are those who can afford them, good job.

But I think the question here is (or at least for me), does this exotic field coil do much in terms of overall sonic performance? Is Andrew Jones building speakers for the sake of being unique and exotic vs how much sonic performance can one get from it.

I think this is really more of a lifestyle product, which is perfectly fine and if so, I wouldn't even ask about the sonic performance, nor would I even aspire to own one, namely the physical design isn't my style.

 

[levimax]

A Lambo has performance that is better than 99% of the other cars
So it's not exactly the same

If this speaker is well executed and some of AJ's experiments turn out successfully I could see these speakers performing better than the vast majority of speakers being sold.

 

[MattHooper]

Why is it negative to want to build something a certain way, and then do it? The law of Jante apparently isn't just a Scandinavian thing. There are many ways to build a loudspeaker.

Is it necessary to build a field coil driver? Of course not.

Will it be expensive? Probably.

But we don't stand outside the local Lamborghini dealer and shout "It's too expensive! And unreliable! You should sell Toyotas!"
Sometimes somewhat crazy things are built, not because it's the most logical thing to do, but because it's fun and challenging.

Yes, the mind of an engineer! Doing something out of the fascination of what can be done.

Hand a new gizmo to a non-engineer and they will ask: “What can this do for me?”

Hand a new gizmo to an engineer he’ll wonder: “ What can I make this thing do?”

 

[Mnyb]

It might not be competitive for the typical ASR reader as an average ( we can buy other brands and get more bang for the buck ) , but if the design succeeds with reasonable linearity and decent directivity AND the high sensitivity it will be the best speakers any of 3w SET aficionados ever used , considering the typical Rube Goldberg machines with multiple horns and ancient drivers cobbled together willy inly they usually use ?

 

[PGansz]

A Lambo has performance that is better than 99% of the other cars
So it's not exactly the same

It only performs better in some metrics. Its primary use-case is to appeal to children and show-off. It has barely any luggage capacity, can't tow anything, and gets terrible gas mileage. Only until 2012 could Lambo's actually circulate a track without melting their brakes or catching them on fire.

The world is a better place with variety. Plain and simple.

 

[mhardy6647]

I have some 180 litre cabs here I'd say the AJ speaker is maybe 20 percent smaller but it's a guess as hard to see the depth on the pic.

I mean... it looks like a desktop minispeaker to me.



but they're also about 10 dB less sensitive than what I'm used to, although my loudspeakers don't use electrodynamic drivers.

These do, though.

all but the (edit: barely visible) tweeters, that is.
Referring to the two big boys, not the 'center channel' (which is actually a dedicated mono loudspeaker, and one which is loaded with PM drivers).

They're also probably the best sounding loudspeakers I've ever heard, and definitely the most impactful.
(EDIT: There's also a pair of Tom Danley-built subwoofers visible in the Stereophile photo above - but they're not in use because, when the system was completely installed, tuned and measured, they turned out to be unnecessary)

AJ's are toys for the quasi-nouveau-riche

 

[Audionaut]

But we don't stand outside the local Lamborghini dealer and shout "It's too expensive! And unreliable! You should sell Toyotas!"

Of course I do.
Every Wednesday and every second Saturday of the month, we go to the local Lamborghini dealership, drink a few beers, grill some sausages, and chant every 15 minutes:
"It's too expensive! And unreliable! You should sell Mantas!"

 

[mhardy6647]

It only performs better in some metrics. It's primary use-case is to appeal to children and show-off. It has barely any luggage capacity, can't tow anything, and gets terrible gas mileage. Only until 2012 could Lambo's actually circulate a track without melting their brakes or catching them on fire.

Fortunately, "Lambo" does offer options when towing is a consideration.

1965 lamborghini model 1r tractor by j, on Flickr

 

[PGansz]

As a staunch defender of those who worked hard to become rich and/or remain rich even as a relatively poor man myself, I fully believe in a reasonable gluttonous self-spoil for those who can afford it even if I am not one of them. If there are those building Lamborghini, good job, if there are those who can afford them, good job.

But I think the question here is (or at least for me), does this exotic field coil do much in terms of overall sonic performance? Is Andrew Jones building speakers for the sake of being unique and exotic vs how much sonic performance can one get from it.

I think this is really more of a lifestyle product, which is perfectly fine and if so, I wouldn't even ask about the sonic performance, nor would I even aspire to own one, namely the physical design isn't my style.

Choice of powerplants is the same - Mazda went to town at Le Mans in 1991 with a Wenkel engine, despite terrible fuel and oil consumption, etc. I like the idea of powerplant diversification; except the new F1 engines.

Old muscle cars with carburetors are pretty dumb in the 21st century, but if NASCAR engines could sport them running 8000RPM and making 750HP from 5L, it's still cool.