Analogue Turntabling ...

[NorthSky]

Testing:

Question (serious): Anyone notice something?

 

[RayDunzl]

Like, what?

Automatic arm?
Background hissy noise?
Label off-center?
More views than a (probably) digitally sourced version?

 

[NorthSky]

I first thought the pitch was off a little, but it isn't; I verified.
The label is off center, yes, but not the center hole, so it doesn't matter.
The overall sound is smooth, and the voice with the instruments gel harmoniously together.
The saxophone is nice and full, the electric piano has presence, like the voice.

I listened to the digital version you provided; it is less earthy, less natural.
It sounds good too, only different.

I also listened first to my CD @ home, and the sax sounded different, the high notes, the high frequencies were irritating. The bass guitar was decent.

I also have few copies of this album on vinyl, I think three, and from memory they are my preferred choices...no irritation, no fatigue.

I like that album, a lot...from 1984, just after the CD was making its apparition on our continent.

 

[watchnerd]

Like, what?

Automatic arm?
Background hissy noise?
Label off-center?
More views than a (probably) digitally sourced version?

The cogging of the direct drive?

 

[watchnerd]

I first thought the pitch was off a little, but it isn't; I verified.
The label is off center, yes, but not the center hole, so it doesn't matter.
The overall sound is smooth, and the voice with the instruments gel harmoniously together.
The saxophone is nice and full, the electric piano has presence, like the voice.

I listened to the digital version you provided; it is less earthy, less natural.
It sounds good too, only different.

I also listened first to my CD @ home, and I the sax sounded different, the high notes, the high frequencies were irritating. The bass guitar was decent.

I also have few copies of this album on vinyl, I think three, and from memory they are my preferred choices...no irritation, no fatigue.

I like that album, a lot...from 1984, just after the CD was making its apparition on our continent.

To be horribly stereotypical, I tend to avoid most early to mid 1980s digital versions of any pop music, almost always preferring either later digital remasters or pre-CD analog.

Some blame might be placed on mediocre quality of early generation ADC/DACs, but I think most of the blame lies on the mixing and mastering engineers not understanding the new format yet and rushing things to market to jump on the CD gold rush.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you can't properly play vinyl, you shouldn't do it at all.

Unlike straightforward CD, the tweaks, and experience necessary to properly portray vinyl and its inherent superiority in sound with infinite resolution take half a lifetime to develop. Sounds like VTA mis-adjustment, possible mistracking due to cartridge misaligntment, an overly heavy downforce and actually like you have anti-skating working okay. The up down movement shows you aren't using vacuum hold down or a disc clamp (already are you handicapped by direct drive). No damping on the platter which is ringing like a cheap digital filter.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Oh, and I hope you didn't take everything in the above post seriously.

 

[watchnerd]

If you can't properly play vinyl, you shouldn't do it at all.

Unlike straightforward CD, the tweaks, and experience necessary to properly portray vinyl and its inherent superiority in sound with infinite resolution take half a lifetime to develop. Sounds like VTA mis-adjustment, possible mistracking due to cartridge misaligntment, an overly heavy downforce and actually like you have anti-skating working okay. The up down movement shows you aren't using vacuum hold down or a disc clamp (already are you handicapped by direct drive). No damping on the platter which is ringing like a cheap digital filter.

Jesting aside, you make a good point on the inherent tweakiness of vinyl.

Paradoxically, with readily available digital, the necessity to make an imperfect medium sound "perfect" is relatively moot; if you want closer to perfection, go listen to the digital version (assuming the digital master wasn't dynamically squished, but that's a different issue).

Personally, I go for "reasonably good enough" and "enjoyable" on all the set up parameters and call it a day. I'm not one of those nutters who adjusts VTA for every record.

Although the Devialet's DSP-based phono stage does let me do things like play with capacitance loading on the fly, which I'm finding is just as insanity-inducing as tube-rolling.

Ironically, I think the audiophile "need to tweak", while at least semi-purposeful in the analog world (albeit with serious diminishing returns), has been completely misdirected and misapplied to digital, with an explosion of unnecessary (and sometimes harmful) gadgetry and snake oil for things that don't really need fixing.

All those blowing money on audiophile USB and Ethernet cables, USB scrubbers, extra power supplies, etc, should just dump that money into an analog rig, where there really are never-ending problems to obsess over.

 

[watchnerd]

Oh, and I left out having separate mono cartridges for mono records...

 

[NorthSky]

To be horribly stereotypical, I tend to avoid most early to mid 1980s digital versions of any pop music, almost always preferring either later digital remasters or pre-CD analog.

Some blame might be placed on mediocre quality of early generation ADC/DACs, but I think most of the blame lies on the mixing and mastering engineers not understanding the new format yet and rushing things to market to jump on the CD gold rush.

Bingo!
My vinyls from that era are more . . . peaceful to my ears and brain.
Zero fatigue, zero irritation.
_____

* This is a YouTube video from Mace, not from me.
_____

I cannot setup my CD player and turntable properly, that's why I'm here.
One day, I'll be able to, and I will listen to all the great music composers in all their glory, just like live.

 

[Don Hills]

Looking at the cart mounting screws right at the end of the slots, you have to wonder if the overhang is set correctly.

 

[Frank Dernie]

To be horribly stereotypical, I tend to avoid most early to mid 1980s digital versions of any pop music, almost always preferring either later digital remasters or pre-CD analog.

Some blame might be placed on mediocre quality of early generation ADC/DACs, but I think most of the blame lies on the mixing and mastering engineers not understanding the new format yet and rushing things to market to jump on the CD gold rush.

My experience is pretty well the opposite of this.
All the manufacturers were thrilled by the ability to issue recordings with more dynamic range than LP when CD came along. Most of my best sounding CDs are early ones, before compression became routine and whilst I find some remastered CDs sound "modern" they have often lost the dynamic range of the originals and are simply louder.
Classical CDs are usually still fine, the few modern pop CDs I listened to have been disappointing.

As far as the recorders are concerned whilst there have been gains in performance even the earliest were close to transparent, with only the importance of level setting of 16-bit recorders of any concern. The idea that early digital was in some way inferior does not stand up to scrutiny IME, just marketing BS to get people to buy better new stuff despite what they have being adequate.

Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn failed to identify the very first readily available digital adapter for a video recorder (Sony PCM-F1) from an interconnect in a listening test.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/bas/0710/

The first digital recorder I used, a StellaDat was audibly transparent on the type of music I record, no analogue recorder I had ever was.
IME CD sound quality has got worse over the years as people release music compressed so as to be suitable for listening in a car or other noisy environments, which is where most people listen now.
Sitting in front of a good stereo in a quiet room enjoying music is pure old fogey territory it seems.

 

[NorthSky]

But he is right in the overall miserable music quality recordings of the CD from the eighties. Even if that turntable above is not setup perfectly, as some of you already noticed and assumed, the sound still beats Sade - Diamond Life of that CD from 1984. The highs are truly excruciating, unless you can attenuate them somehow. But why do that, why trying to make bad sound sounding good when you can simply listen to the best sound, from the vinyl, for this one, and most of them from that poor digital era. Today is better, finally after 36 years. But analog too.

The quality of music recordings on CDs depends of the quality of the music recording mixers with quality recording tools from quality music recording studios.

Technics is still making turntables, but no CD players.

We can't generalize; it's the recordings that brake or glorify a system, the quality of the music recording...the magic moment captured on tape.

My CDs and SACDs from Chesky and ECM and Reference Recordings and Channel Classics they sound great, thanks for the quick setup of my quality CD players. If CD wouldn't have been invented I would still be in heaven with vinyl. It just takes more time to setup and switch cartridges, that's all.
And I don't mind the exercise, it exorcises my body and soul positively.

I have periods in life; digital, and analog.
All the rain in the world, all the oceans, all the stars in the sky; they have their destiny, I have my destiny, what is your destiny.

My best friend never had a turntable, my Mom never had a CD player.
They are still my best friend and Mom. They are the best happy people in the whole world, the best and highest calibrer of human's excellence.

One day I will be able to reach their level.

 

[Frank Dernie]

But he is right in the overall miserable music quality recordings of the CD from the eighties. Even if that turntable above is not setup perfectly, as some of you already noticed and assumed, the sound still beats Sade - Diamond Life of that CD from 1984. The highs are truly excruciating, unless you can attenuate them somehow. But why do that, why trying to make bad sound sounding good when you can simply listen to the best sound, from the vinyl, for this one, and most of them from that poor digital era. Today is better, finally after 36 years. But analog too.

The quality of music recordings on CDs depends of the quality of the music recording mixers with quality recording tools from quality music recording studios.

Technics is still making turntables, but no CD players.

We can't generalize; it's the recordings that brake or glorify a system, the quality of the music recording...the magic moment captured on tape.

My CDs and SACDs from Chesky and ECM and Reference Recordings and Channel Classics they sound great, thanks for the quick setup of my quality CD players. If CD wouldn't have been invented I would still be in heaven with vinyl. It just takes more time to setup and switch cartridges, that's all.
And I don't mind the exercise, it exorcises my body and soul positively.

I have periods in life; digital, and analog.
All the rain in the world, all the oceans, all the stars in the sky; they have their destiny, I have my destiny, what is your destiny.

My best friend never had a turntable, my Mom never had CD player.
They are still my best friend and Mom. They are the best happy people in the whole world, the best and highest calibrer of human's excellence.

One day I will be able to reach their level.

This really doesn't match my experience at all. You are right, we shouldn't generalise, but many of the best sounding CDs I own are from the 80s.
I do think that since most cartridges roll off in the treble anybody who had a balanced LP system back then may well have had excessive treble from their speakers to get LPs right, which made CDs sound bright. I haven't got the Sade LP so have no way to make a comparison I do have the original CD which I have just put on but with nothing to compare with I don't know what to say...

 

[NorthSky]

Smooth "Opporator"

⊙ http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...rait-cbs-is-this-the-one-to-get.335594/page-2

In the UK they probably have better quality music recordings.
...And the same in Japan.
So, depending on where the mixing took place and who was @ the console recording/mixing/remastering board, it's perfectly logical that we have various different opinion.

Here in my own country, my CD copy of that album, I listened to it yesterday, sounded awful; the highs were grossly distortioning.
I admit that it's been a while since I spun my vinyls, but no way my turntables ever gave me that atrocious sound. I listened strictly to vinyl for roughly thirty-five years. I started in 1969, the year of flowers and wars.

CDs? Since 1985...thirty-three years. The year of the decadence of the American empire.

I just need to properly setup my music spinner with the right loudspeakers and the best recording format from the best region in the world by the best music recording engineers. That CD from my shelf isn't it. It was no weight, no soul, no grip, no essence.
• Produced by Robin Millar, 1985 CBS Inc. ...Portrait Records, New York, NY.
RK 39581 - DIDP 20135

 

[Burning Sounds]

This really doesn't match my experience at all. You are right, we shouldn't generalise, but many of the best sounding CDs I own are from the 80s.

I agree that many of the best sounding CDs are the earlier releases from the 80s - unfortunately to my ears this is an exception and it does sound excessively bright and not pleasant to listen to. In its favour it has a dynamic range of 13 compared to the later "remaster" on the Ultimate Collection CD which has a dynamic range of only 5 - but it is more pleasant to listen to. I don't have a vinyl version so I can't compare to that format.

 

[restorer-john]

Oh, and I hope you didn't take everything in the above post seriously.

I was seriously concerned for a second.

 

[restorer-john]

Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn failed to identify the very first readily available digital adapter for a video recorder (Sony PCM-F1) from an interconnect in a listening test.

He was too busy tapping his foot and 'following the tune'...

But he is right in the overall miserable music quality recordings of the CD from the eighties

Sorry, but I call this as BS. The 1980s provided some of the absolute best recordings, particularly of Classical and Jazz, where huge budgets, fantastic artists, venues and technology were used. Those recordings will never be bettered, as there is simply no money anymore in classical, half the artists are dead, the halls cost too much to book and the record companies are done with expensive classical productions.

Most of the stellar 1980s CD recordings I use as references, were recorded on early Soundstream, Ampex, Sony, Mitsubishi stationary head digital recorders or the uMatic-based/VTR rotary PCMFx Sonys. They were, and are, utterly transparent. I've run 5 DAT recorders (I have a collection of them) in daisy chained A/D-D/A and cannot hear them in the loop or out.

 

[NorthSky]

My fault, I didn't specify the genres of music I was mostly listening back then: Progressive Rock, Psychedelic Rock, New Age, New Wave, Electronica, Folk, Pop, Avant garde, Classic Rock, Blues, Motion Picture Soundtracks, ...

* Classical and Jazz were on analog.

I live in Canada, and the bullshit digital music recordings were aplenty.
The factories where they pressed those CDs were bad too.

Now you have more precision on what I was saying.
The regions where we live in the world, the music genres we were listening to, the time, ...everything is important.

The best music years of my youth were the late sixties and seventies, from LPs and 45s. ...From Quebec, near Montreal. ...French artist musicians singers too.
No bullshit from our analog vinyl, just pure bliss.

I have no clue how it was in Australia in the eighties living in the digital world. I wasn't there, I don't know where your Classical and Jazz CDs were coming from back then, zero. If you were in heaven with digital in the 80s as I was with my analog albums back in the 70s, it must have been marvelous living life with your family and friends, surrounded by sweet music in your ears.

My cat just farted; she's vegetarian.

 

[watchnerd]

My experience is pretty well the opposite of this.
All the manufacturers were thrilled by the ability to issue recordings with more dynamic range than LP when CD came along. Most of my best sounding CDs are early ones, before compression became routine and whilst I find some remastered CDs sound "modern" they have often lost the dynamic range of the originals and are simply louder.
Classical CDs are usually still fine, the few modern pop CDs I listened to have been disappointing.

As far as the recorders are concerned whilst there have been gains in performance even the earliest were close to transparent, with only the importance of level setting of 16-bit recorders of any concern. The idea that early digital was in some way inferior does not stand up to scrutiny IME, just marketing BS to get people to buy better new stuff despite what they have being adequate.

Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn failed to identify the very first readily available digital adapter for a video recorder (Sony PCM-F1) from an interconnect in a listening test.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/bas/0710/

The first digital recorder I used, a StellaDat was audibly transparent on the type of music I record, no analogue recorder I had ever was.
IME CD sound quality has got worse over the years as people release music compressed so as to be suitable for listening in a car or other noisy environments, which is where most people listen now.
Sitting in front of a good stereo in a quiet room enjoying music is pure old fogey territory it seems.

As a teen in the 1980s, most of the pop / rock music of my youth comes from the early digital era. I didn't personally have a CD player until I was 16 (1986), having lived off cassettes prior to that, but bought only CDs once I got a player.

I kept those CDs all the way up to the present and ripped them to FLAC.

I can't think of a single one of them that sounds better in its original mastering than subsequent remasters.