• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Analog Frequency Response

svart-hvitt

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
2,375
Likes
1,253
Yes.
It isn't always massively differnt though, depending on design and setup. Very few cartidges, if any, have anywhere near linear magnetic circuits according to a specialist I know. Certainly the traditional MC layout isn't linear so there is a lot of polishing the turd goes on, to use the old term of phrase.

Seems like vinyl’s best friend from a technical standpoint would be some clever DSP to straighten out the frequency curve and maybe some other processing.

However, that may not be what vinylists want?
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Seems like vinyl’s best friend from a technical standpoint would be some clever DSP to straighten out the frequency curve and maybe some other processing.

However, that may not be what vinylists want?

Seems like vinyl’s best friend from a technical standpoint would be some clever DSP to straighten out the frequency curve and maybe some other processing.

However, that may not be what vinylists want?

I think that DSP would ultimately emulate the CD. And, yes, the proclaimed vinylists would not like it.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
Seems like vinyl’s best friend from a technical standpoint would be some clever DSP to straighten out the frequency curve and maybe some other processing.

However, that may not be what vinylists want?
There are a multitude of colourations, vibration pickup and frequency response irregularities in the various components of a record player. They interact with each other and allow one to mix-and-match to get the effect(s) you want. With CD you are pretty well stuck with listening to what the recording company produced, with LP you are able to adjust it quite a bit.
I have 4 record players which sound different from each other. I have 6 DACs which all sound the same (or a tiny, tiny bit different in the case of one of them)
 

svart-hvitt

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
2,375
Likes
1,253
There are a multitude of colourations, vibration pickup and frequency response irregularities in the various components of a record player. They interact with each other and allow one to mix-and-match to get the effect(s) you want. With CD you are pretty well stuck with listening to what the recording company produced, with LP you are able to adjust it quite a bit.
I have 4 record players which sound different from each other. I have 6 DACs which all sound the same (or a tiny, tiny bit different in the case of one of them)

Quiz: Out of your 6 DACs, which is/are the transparent(est) of them ;)
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
Quiz: Out of your 6 DACs, which is/are the transparent(est) of them ;)
Possibly the Metric Halo recorder since I am unable to detect a difference between its output and its microphone feed.
Since this is the case, and its DAC sounds close to, if not identical to, the others I would say they are all a requestably good approximation to transparent, to use the terminology of my old maths lecturer.
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,500
Likes
5,417
Location
UK
Seems like vinyl’s best friend from a technical standpoint would be some clever DSP to straighten out the frequency curve and maybe some other processing.

However, that may not be what vinylists want?
I'm fairly certain that isn't what's required, my best guess is that mastering engineers have some sort of approximate best guess what playback frequency response at home might be, and compensate for that, so flat may sound worse than rolled off, plus if distortion is rising artfully reducing response may sort of balance it out. To me there is no point chasing some ideal of perfection with vinyl, enjoy it for what it is, or don't use it, anything in the middle seems a recipe for frustration.
 

svart-hvitt

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
2,375
Likes
1,253
I'm fairly certain that isn't what's required, my best guess is that mastering engineers have some sort of approximate best guess what playback frequency response at home might be, and compensate for that, so flat may sound worse than rolled off, plus if distortion is rising artfully reducing response may sort of balance it out. To me there is no point chasing some ideal of perfection with vinyl, enjoy it for what it is, or don't use it, anything in the middle seems a recipe for frustration.

Agree, but I was thinking about DSP tuning output to the behaviour of the specific cartridge etc. However, I realize this is just theoretical and not what vinylists ever wanted.
 

Soniclife

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2017
Messages
4,500
Likes
5,417
Location
UK
Agree, but I was thinking about DSP tuning output to the behaviour of the specific cartridge etc. However, I realize this is just theoretical and not what vinylists ever wanted.
Can DSP reduce distortion?
 

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
HiFi News does a distortion measurement of all the cartridges it tests. It is the only magazine I know of in English that does. Typically 2% through the mid band and often 8% in the top octave (10kHz-20kHz) though there are substantial variations. The biggest difference between cartridges is frequency response. Very few are flat, some have big peaks in the treble but many of the popular audiophile units are rolled off in the treble, some, like Koetsus start to roll off surprisingly early. Can't find the plot at the moment though :(

IMO, the biggest difference (and most important) is crosstalk & separation.

Those plots, and more ... http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
IMO, the biggest difference (and most important) is crosstalk & separation.

Those plots, and more ... http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/
I don't agree. IME 30dB of crosstalk is plenty . The frequency response variations can be vast and very obvious. IMO the distortion is euphonic though and one of the things people like about records.
A 0.5 dB change in FR is audible IMO and even a fairly neutral cartridge like a Lyra Etna starts deviating from flat at 3kHz and is up 1dB by 8kHz and continues rising thereafter. As a contrast the Koetsu Onyx starts rolling off at 2kHz and is 3dB down by 10kHz and keeps dropping off, this is a vast difference which is very audible. The difference in crosstalk is modest and they have similar distortion levels.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,370
Likes
234,436
Location
Seattle Area
Here is a measurement from HiFi news of a MC cartridge (Lyra Etna SL):

1527267463266.png


Alas, I am not sure how much of that is in the test record versus the playback. It is the sum of the two regardless.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,370
Likes
234,436
Location
Seattle Area
IMO the distortion is euphonic though and one of the things people like about records.
I for one find the distortions non-euphonic. :) It is the different mastering which I think brings better experience.
 

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
I don't agree. IME 30dB of crosstalk is plenty . The frequency response variations can be vast and very obvious. IMO the distortion is euphonic though and one of the things people like about records.
A 0.5 dB change in FR is audible IMO and even a fairly neutral cartridge like a Lyra Etna starts deviating from flat at 3kHz and is up 1dB by 8kHz and continues rising thereafter. As a contrast the Koetsu Onyx starts rolling off at 2kHz and is 3dB down by 10kHz and keeps dropping off, this is a vast difference which is very audible. The difference in crosstalk is modest and they have similar distortion levels.

disagree. IME, the best sounding carts offer the greatest separation.

and 30db, that's if you are lucky. Most carts have separation figures closer to 20db, depending on frequency, including some very expensive models. 25db is more the norm.

When I do plots of my own system, the frequency response is generally governed by the LP itself.

below is a unscaled graph of LongCoolWoman from a GH LP played on my system. The bass has been intentionally lifted during the mastering of the Lp to provide more slam, but the highs remain nearly identical.

Blue(left lp) Red(right lp) light blue & red is the CD.

1527268468320.png
 

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
Amirm, that's the distortion plot. The freq plot is elsewhere (i'd post it but couldn't find the Lyra Etna measurements)
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
disagree. IME, the best sounding carts offer the greatest separation.

and 30db, that's if you are lucky. Most carts have separation figures closer to 20db, depending on frequency, including some very expensive models. 25db is more the norm.
Indeed separation is nowhere near CD levels, but I don't notice the big difference in separation between CDs and LPs having an influence on the stereo image, but the big differences between the frequency responses of different cartridges is very obvious in my experience.

Are you sure the bass is raised in mastering? It is very record player and placement dependent but acoustic and mechanical feedback in the bass can be only a few dB down on signal, so no howling but substantial extra bass coming out of the cartridge, the extra bass is very likely to be being created by your TT, not on the LP.
When I first started working in the R&D department at Garrard one of the first thing they did was to get me to do a rumble measurement of a deck. I had been doing noise and vibration research for years by then so I was familiar with the analogue measuring gear from Bruel and Kjaer everybody used. I had the deck on an oak workbench on the 4th floor of the building. I couldn't get a consistent result and thought the deck may be faulty but then one of the experienced guys pointed out it was picking up the traffic driving by on the road below, the other side of the car park! The deck had normal rubber grommet mounts but they do nothing at bass frequencies. Mounting the deck on a seismic mass for the measurement resulted in stable low measurements.
OTOH personally I like the bass one gets from a non-suspended TT even though I know it is an artefact not on the LP.
I have 4 record players, a Goldmund Reference/T3f, an EMT direct drive studio TT and arm, a B&O 8002 (superbly engineered) and a Roksan Xerxes. They all sound different to each other probably because of their different airborne and structure borne feedback signatures adding differing amounts of reverb.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
Amirm, that's the distortion plot. The freq plot is elsewhere (i'd post it but couldn't find the Lyra Etna measurements)
The Etna is in a review in the My issue, I have subscribed for decades so have many, though mostly only recent ones to hand. That is from the measurement I quoted in post 31.
 

TBone

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
1,191
Likes
348
Are you sure the bass is raised in mastering? It is very record player and placement dependent but acoustic and mechanical feedback in the bass can be only a few dB down on signal, so no howling but substantial extra bass coming out of the cartridge, the extra bass is very likely to be being created by your TT, not on the LP.

(big sigh) yes I'm sure. Let's pretend, if you may, that I know what I'm doing ...

Rip was done using headphones, no acoustic feedback is introduced. If the turntable/arm/cart was to blame it would become a constant, hence it would show the same characteristics on every plot I've generated (hundreds upon hundreds of 'em). My system is very accurate!!!
 
Top Bottom