An Unexpected (and delightful) Journey - Thiel CS 3.6 speakers

[RickS]

NOTE: If you did not catch the novel reference in the thread title and just want to hear about my Thiel purchase, skip to post 2...

As some of you know, was recently asked by a local auction house to help them sell some nicer vintage audio equipment on consignment. It consisted of 2 systems, and the movers had packed it up and deposited the equipment and the cabling in the warehouse. The amount of cabling overwhelmed the warehouse manager and she was perplexed. She had asked for me for some advice on a turntable last Christmas and so sought out my help on this equipment. The previous owner had passed about 8 years ago and so was not available to consult and his wife was prepping to move. The auction site rarely sold more expensive audio gear and was unprepared to handle its sale. Normally, the most they would do is check whether something power up or not. Some other aspects complicated the situation as will explain next…

When I arrived at the warehouse, was pleased to find the original owner had kept all his boxes. The main electronics were Krell preamps and amplifiers, and the speakers were B&W 802Ds and Thiel CS3.6. However. despite having boxes, cables were all over the place. One big box contained most of the cables that were used - all expensive MIT brand power and interconnect cables. Every cable had a big pod on it and the power cables had one on each end. The gear included one rack. All gear appeared in great condition except several remotes - their batteries had leaked as they had sat unused. The only source was a Theta CD transport and its DAC. For some reason, there was also Alpha Audio DAC. My recommendation to the auction manager was that this equipment be tested and left on display for prospective buyers to check out. They emptied a small office being used for storage and I set up one system on each wall.

The systems were re-wired but no sound. This was eventually found to be the DAC SPDIF wiring and the CD transport was flakey too. After replacing with a borrowed CD player, everything was working and I trained the staff on how to demo. After getting a chance to listen, the main comment was that the Thiel's sounded better than the ($12,000 when new) B&Ws. This was mainly due to lower bass and could have been placement, but the room was rather small, and the goal was to prove the equipment was working (rather than doing a serious audition). I ran impedance sweeps on both sets of speakers and the pairs matched well and correlated to published measurements. Could have done more measuring but was not in the budget.

During the auction, a few customers came in and listened. I bid on the Thiels and one of the Krell preamps. I did not (initially) win either, but the auction was a success in the end. The B&W system sold to a local customer and most of the rest of the gear sold to 2 out-of-state bidders.

I thought it was over, however...

 

[RickS]

As I have plenty of speakers and still some works-in-progress, did not have any plans to purchase anything. But as mentioned above, got involved in this auction and liked what I heard in the Thiel CS3.6 speakers and so decided to place a modest bid on them. A few other factors weighed in...

1. They were in near-mint condition for vintage speakers. One passive radiator had a cosmetic flaw, and the grill cloth needed some re-attaching but was otherwise fine.
2. In a Stereophile review, they measured well for vintage speakers, and I verified with some measurements of my own. As the drivers were custom versions of known branding, I knew I could replace or repair them with reasonable effort on my part.
3. For larger speakers (4 ft tall), my wife actually liked them and the cabinetry itself had value for me if I decided to gut them and repurpose later.

In any case, was pretty sure I was not going to land these but set my budget and was contemplating one of the Krell preamps as well. As the bidding closed, all the Krell stuff went for more than what I would pay for brand new equipment and so was not getting a preamp. The Thiels had 2 other major competing bidders and they had both outbid me. The winning bid was $800 and I walked away. Unbeknownst to me, one bidder had withdrawn his bids just before the bidding ended and the bid's winner was a no-show. Mine was the last valid bid and, along with some management gratitude for a successful auction, the Thiels were mine.

Once I got them home, I listened to them more and found they sound quite nice. The bass was solid even at lower listening levels. I fixed the grills but was concerned over potential long-term damage on the passive radiator. In another pleasant surprise, despite the demise of the original company, the service part of the business existed as Coherent Source Services. After some quick emails and a phone call with the owner, decided to buy a replacement passive radiator. Even after some initial use, the new PR needed additional weight to match its older twin's tuning. Now it matches well.

Have listened to most of my favorite music and the Thiels continue to impress me. I plan to do some critical listening before I determine whether to keep them or not. They are stressing my old Onkyo AVR when played loudly so critical listening will be done with my Purifi amp. Once my own design is completed, the Thiels will serve as a comparison reference design. That will be their ultimate test.

 

[RickS]

Since I realize would get asked eventually, here is a pic of the MIT Z-cord II power cables…

All of the cables were sold individually at the auction. The only set purchased by the new B&W owner seemed like they were adding another set of crossovers to the speakers. I originally wired the speakers with straight wire and heard no major difference. As far as I know, these MIT power cables were the only additional power filtering used for these systems. For the auction, they were hooked to inexpensive surge suppressor power strips. Am sure they kept me from hearing the special characteristics of the MIT cables.

 

[Doodski]

Since I realize would get asked eventually, here is a pic of the MIT Z-cord II power cables…

View attachment 494483

All of the cables were sold individually at the auction. The only set purchased by the new B&W owner seemed like they were adding another set of crossover to the speakers. I originally wired the speakers with straight wire and heard no major difference. As far as I know, these MIT power cables were the only additional power filtering used for these systems. For the auction, thye were hooked to inexpensive surge suppressor power strips. Am sure they kept me from hearing the special characteristics of the MIT cables.

I remember when MIT was a good'n proper quality product that was mostly common sense with a little spin of course because it's cables but it was mostly good. When I first got into electronics service I assembled 1900 MIT RCA interlink 1m cable pairs from large wooden spools of raw MIT interlink Litz wound wire each strand insulated with Teflon coating and many large Styrofoam flats of the MIT RCA ends. I used a very large fan powered industrial ventilation hood over the workbench, a solder pot, 2 solder irons, lot of Kester solder flux and Kester solution. There was thousands or whatever it was of the tiny tiny Litz wound wires in the cable. I made humongous huge amounts of smoke. I am talking a lot of smoke here...LoL. If not for that large exhaust hood I would probably not be here. Hehe. All 1900 pairs went to retailers for retail sale. 2 single length came back for warranty service and where not an assembly caused issue. I took the 4 pair that where slightly odd lengths home and used them for many years without issue. Then everything went south and MIT is now what it has become.

 

[RickS]

The MIT speaker cables had jackets that made them about as thick as a good garden hose. Their bend radius was very limited and was difficult to route. Notably difficult on the Thiels as their binding posts are on the bottom and have to come through a slot in the back. Needed to seriously crank down on the connectors to ensure they would not come off when the speakers were stood up and moved into place.

 

[Doodski]

The MIT speaker cables had jackets that made them about as thick as a good garden hose. Their bend radius was very limited and was difficult to route. Notably difficult on the Thiels as their binding posts are on the bottom and have to come through a slot in the back. Needed to crank down on the connectors to ensure they would not come off when the speakers were stood up and moved into place.

I had the ~3/4" Monster speaker cables like that. It was mostly dielectric and some 14G copper inside. The ferret took a couple casual sniffs, casually tested the surface with it's tooth when I was watching and decided not interested and for years after no issues that way. it was Ok wire but it was all dielectric.. LoL...

 

[pkane]

As I have plenty of speakers and still some works-in-progress, did not have any plans to purchase anything. But as mentioned above, got involved in this auction and liked what I heard in the Thiel CS3.6 speakers and so decided to place a modest bid on them. A few other factors weighed in...

1. They were in near-mint condition for vintage speakers. One passive radiator had a cosmetic flaw, and the grill cloth needed some re-attaching but was otherwise fine.
2. In a Stereophile review, they measured well for vintage speakers, and I verified with some measurements of my own. As the drivers were custom versions of known branding, I knew I could replace or repair them with reasonable effort on my part.
3. For larger speakers (4 ft tall), my wife actually liked them and the cabinetry itself had value for me if I decided to gut them and repurpose later.

In any case, was pretty sure I was not going to land these but set my budget and was contemplating one of the Krell preamps as well. As the bidding closed, all the Krell stuff went for more than what I would pay for brand new equipment and so was not getting a preamp. The Thiels had 2 other major competing bidders and they had both outbid me. The winning bid was $800 and I walked away. Unbeknownst to me, one bidder had withdrawn his bids just before the bidding ended and the bid's winner was a no-show. Mine was the last valid bid and, along with some management gratitude for a successful auction, the Thiels were mine.

Once I got them home, I listened to them more and found they sound quite nice. The bass was solid even at lower listening levels. I fixed the grills but was concerned over potential long-term damage on the passive radiator. In another pleasant surprise, despite the demise of the original company, the service part of the business existed as Coherent Source Services. After some quick emails and a phone call with the owner, decided to buy a replacement passive radiator. Even after some initial use, the new PR needed additional weight to match its older twin's tuning. Now it matches well.

View attachment 494465

Have listened to most of my favorite music and the Thiels continue to impress me. I plan to do some critical listening before I determine whether to keep them or not. They are stressing my old Onkyo AVR when played loudly so critical listening will be done with my Purifi amp. Once my own design is completed, the Thiels will serve as a comparison reference design. That will be their ultimate test.

Nice - congrats! Looks exactly like my daily driver for the past 30 years. Very solid (and hefty) speaker It does require an amp that can handle the (not that infrequent) ~2Ω impedance.

 

[MattHooper]

As I have plenty of speakers and still some works-in-progress, did not have any plans to purchase anything. But as mentioned above, got involved in this auction and liked what I heard in the Thiel CS3.6 speakers and so decided to place a modest bid on them. A few other factors weighed in...

1. They were in near-mint condition for vintage speakers. One passive radiator had a cosmetic flaw, and the grill cloth needed some re-attaching but was otherwise fine.
2. In a Stereophile review, they measured well for vintage speakers, and I verified with some measurements of my own. As the drivers were custom versions of known branding, I knew I could replace or repair them with reasonable effort on my part.
3. For larger speakers (4 ft tall), my wife actually liked them and the cabinetry itself had value for me if I decided to gut them and repurpose later.

In any case, was pretty sure I was not going to land these but set my budget and was contemplating one of the Krell preamps as well. As the bidding closed, all the Krell stuff went for more than what I would pay for brand new equipment and so was not getting a preamp. The Thiels had 2 other major competing bidders and they had both outbid me. The winning bid was $800 and I walked away. Unbeknownst to me, one bidder had withdrawn his bids just before the bidding ended and the bid's winner was a no-show. Mine was the last valid bid and, along with some management gratitude for a successful auction, the Thiels were mine.

Once I got them home, I listened to them more and found they sound quite nice. The bass was solid even at lower listening levels. I fixed the grills but was concerned over potential long-term damage on the passive radiator. In another pleasant surprise, despite the demise of the original company, the service part of the business existed as Coherent Source Services. After some quick emails and a phone call with the owner, decided to buy a replacement passive radiator. Even after some initial use, the new PR needed additional weight to match its older twin's tuning. Now it matches well.

View attachment 494465

Have listened to most of my favorite music and the Thiels continue to impress me. I plan to do some critical listening before I determine whether to keep them or not. They are stressing my old Onkyo AVR when played loudly so critical listening will be done with my Purifi amp. Once my own design is completed, the Thiels will serve as a comparison reference design. That will be their ultimate test.

Awesome.

As a long time Thiel fanboy, your story warms my heart.

The 3.6s were my introduction to Thiel speakers in the 90s. I remember hearing them and getting the distinct impression that I was hearing a more precise rendition of the exact qualities of the recording than I’d heard before from other loudspeakers. Compared to the same tracks on other speakers in the store, the Thiels felt like putting on eyeglasses with an updated prescription, everything just coming into sharper focus.

That’s been an impression I’ve had with all the Thiel speakers I’ve owned, which is one reason I kept going back to that brand.

It was great when Coherent Source opened up for servicing legacy Thiels. For my Thiel 2.7s I bought a spare coax/woofer/passive radiator from them just as a back up. Should any of the drivers become damaged.

(Thiel designs tended to become somewhat easier to drive as time went on, especially when it came to Jim’s last 3.7 and 2.7 speakers. I had no problem at all driving both of them with my tube amps)

 

[pablolie]

As I have plenty of speakers and still some works-in-progress, did not have any plans to purchase anything. But as mentioned above, got involved in this auction and liked what I heard in the Thiel CS3.6 speakers and so decided to place a modest bid on them. A few other factors weighed in...

1. They were in near-mint condition for vintage speakers. One passive radiator had a cosmetic flaw, and the grill cloth needed some re-attaching but was otherwise fine.
2. In a Stereophile review, they measured well for vintage speakers, and I verified with some measurements of my own. As the drivers were custom versions of known branding, I knew I could replace or repair them with reasonable effort on my part.
3. For larger speakers (4 ft tall), my wife actually liked them and the cabinetry itself had value for me if I decided to gut them and repurpose later.

In any case, was pretty sure I was not going to land these but set my budget and was contemplating one of the Krell preamps as well. As the bidding closed, all the Krell stuff went for more than what I would pay for brand new equipment and so was not getting a preamp. The Thiels had 2 other major competing bidders and they had both outbid me. The winning bid was $800 and I walked away. Unbeknownst to me, one bidder had withdrawn his bids just before the bidding ended and the bid's winner was a no-show. Mine was the last valid bid and, along with some management gratitude for a successful auction, the Thiels were mine.

Once I got them home, I listened to them more and found they sound quite nice. The bass was solid even at lower listening levels. I fixed the grills but was concerned over potential long-term damage on the passive radiator. In another pleasant surprise, despite the demise of the original company, the service part of the business existed as Coherent Source Services. After some quick emails and a phone call with the owner, decided to buy a replacement passive radiator. Even after some initial use, the new PR needed additional weight to match its older twin's tuning. Now it matches well.

View attachment 494465

Have listened to most of my favorite music and the Thiels continue to impress me. I plan to do some critical listening before I determine whether to keep them or not. They are stressing my old Onkyo AVR when played loudly so critical listening will be done with my Purifi amp. Once my own design is completed, the Thiels will serve as a comparison reference design. That will be their ultimate test.

I love vintage stories that reveal how much we obsess about electronics, yet how close premium "vintage" stuff can fully delight us to this day. I rotate in my 30 year old sentimental rig here and there and still love it... and not irrationally, it does perform.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Congrats Rick. Great get! I'm familiar with Thiel from way back when. The 3.6 was the sweet spot in the line and sold for around $3k new. First order crossovers, as Jim Thiel was a big believer in time and phase coherence between drivers. I heard the 3.6's a lot at Nicholson's in Nashville which featured them extensively. Also heard the five way 7.1's at Progressive Audio in Columbus. For my taste, I found the Thiels a tad too bright but certainly they were a very competitive offering in their day. Personally, when I was looking to make my major upgrade, I went for the Aerial Acoustic 10ts, which seemed both a little more tilted to the dark side, and more dynamic as well.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

The Hobbit?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

The Hobbit?

different thiel

 

[Arindal]

Have listened to most of my favorite music and the Thiels continue to impress me.

Congrats! Very impressive speakers back in the days, can confirm your impression of a very tight and solid bass, matching the rather resolving and impulsive mid/high unit, if that makes sense.

Did you ever listen to one of the later coaxial models, 2.7 or 3.7?

 

[Trouble Maker]

It seems you were consulted (paid gig) for the pre-work. Did you at least break even? I would feel like that was a great outcome.

Progressive Audio in Columbus

I interviewed there... 1.5 times? It's been so long the details are fuzzy. Once for a summer gig but since I could only do summer before heading back to college out of town and that didn't work for them. I got an offer from them after college, but I already had another job that better fit what I was looking for. Good group there from my memory, they showed me... everything there and it helped the audio bug full bite. I did get my dad to go after one of my visits and he got a pair of NHT ST4s which he still has and enjoys. https://www.crutchfield.com/S-lELIMxaORPf/p_700ST4B/NHT-ST4.html With what that part of campus has transformed into, it's hard to imagine a high end audio shop there now. Even in the early 2000s it felt a bit out of place.

 

[RickS]

Congrats! Very impressive speakers back in the days, can confirm your impression of a very tight and solid bass, matching the rather resolving and impulsive mid/high unit, if that makes sense.

Thanks!

Did you ever listen to one of the later coaxial models, 2.7 or 3.7?

No, been busy doing my own designs and barely have time to listen to them. Did listen to the 802Ds for a bit and thought they had nice midrange clarity. As one might expect, they were very well built too. The winning bid was around $6000 and the new owner was very pleased. Even if I was willing to buy, my wife thought they were ugly!

 

[RickS]

Also will add some fun anecdotes, it took three movers (one a body builder) to put the 180 pound Krell amp on the rack.

You may have noticed some rolls of blue masking tape above the Krell pre-amp on the Thiel system. Due to the Class A design and minimal clearance from the CD player, after playing for a while, the Krell went into protection mode. Once it cooled, the preamp recovered. Lacking anything prettier handy, the tape rolls supplied some needed clearance. One interesting design aspect of these preamps was that they had no on/off switch and would come up in mute mode when initially powered up. More annoyingly, they would also forget the input selection. So, during the auction, they were usually left on - only the Krell amps were turned off between audition sessions.

 

[RickS]

After some cleaning and lubrication helped the Theta, tried to use it in my system. Once it warms up, it cannot do the initial disc read and displays Err. Left it at my local shop for diagnosis. I only have 2 Sony’s and Samsung that barely get use anymore, so will likely sell the Theta if it is an inexpensive fix. It is really well built.

 

[RickS]

It seems you were consulted (paid gig) for the pre-work. Did you at least break even? I would feel like that was a great outcome.

Yes, was paid but as I am retired, did this more for fun than the money.