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An Enticing Marketing Story, Theory Without Measurement?

Cosmik

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This is a multi-faceted issue (which is what makes it so fascinating), and I don't know of any other way of approaching it than starting from two assumptions:
  1. Humans separate source from room in their hearing; the room sounds like spaciousness; the listener hears the source itself effectively 'dry';
  2. While each natural source has its own dispersion characteristics, the ideal speaker should have equal directivity at all frequencies (it doesn't need to be omnidirectional, however).
From these two assumptions, you can derive a whole load of other ideas that seem to correspond with common experience e.g. the far field recording that sounds nothing like it did 'live' even though recorded from the same location, the floor bounce that no one hears, or the new type of speaker with uniform dispersion that - unlike other speakers - requires no 'voicing'. The first assumption also fits what we might think evolution would do.

But most people start with these assumptions, I think (- tell me where I'm wrong on this):
  1. The job of an audio system is to get the recording as accurately as possible to the listener's ears;
  2. The most important aspect of audio is frequency response magnitude, so this should be used as our basis for assessment of accuracy
That's a whole different ballgame, and leads to all sorts of non sequiturs, inconsistencies and 'Frankenstein systems' IMO.
 
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svart-hvitt

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ACOUSTICS IN CONCERT HALLS: Lessons to be learned?

This article by Kelsey A. Hochgraf in Acoustics Today (Spring 2019) on acoustics in concert halls contains some interesting comments on sound in general.

https://acousticstoday.org/wp-conte...in-Research-and-Design-Kelsey-A.-Hochgraf.pdf

Some quotes:

«Several studies have shown that listeners can be categorized into at least two preference groups: one that prefers louder, more reverberant and enveloping acoustics and another that prefers a more intimate and clearer sound (Lokki et al., 2012; Beranek, 2016)».

«One innovative approach is based on the principles of auditory stream segregation, building on Bregman’s (1990) model of auditory scene analysis. According to this model, the brain decomposes complex auditory scenes into separate streams to distinguish sound sources from each other and from the background noise (...) Kahle (2013) and others have suggested that the brain decomposes the auditory scene in a concert hall into distinct streams: the source and the room. If listeners can perceive the source separately from the room, then they can perceive clarity of the orchestra while simultaneously experiencing reverberance from the room».

«With such a variety of perceptual factors and approaches to prioritizing them, it is no surprise that concert halls around the world sound as different from each other as they do».

«...”the mythical holy grail of perfect acoustics” does not exist».

«...”we’re not measuring the right things yet.”».

«“Throw Away that Standard and Listen: Your Two Ears Work Better” (Lokki, 2013)».

«By harnessing the computing power of parallelized finite-volume simulations over multiple cloud- based graphics-processing units (GPUs), wave-based modeling may become widely available and computationally ef- ficient very soon, allowing acousticians to test their designs with more accuracy and reliability (Hamilton and Bilbao, 2018)».


The article supports the view that authors of software like Audiolense have more to learn about how sound is perceived and that the software models are still immature. The failure to acknowledge this by software authors is not comforting, is it?

The quote that «Kahle (2013) and others have suggested that the brain decomposes the auditory scene in a concert hall into distinct streams: the source and the room» is in direct conflict with the Audiolense author who refuses to discuss that the brain makes a decomposition that a microphone does not.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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I am not yet convinced that your friend's *voice* "is highly colored by the influence of the reverberant space". I can see two possibilities:
  1. the room colors your friend's voice meaning that the two are inextricably woven together;
  2. to your hearing system, the room has its own sound (reverberation) and your friend's voice has its sound; when the reverberant sound is much stronger than your friend's direct voice, you hear only the reverberant sound, coloration and all. It *doesn't* mean that the room has colored your friend's voice; merely that the voice is very quiet in comparison.
The former is silly since, unless he inhales a dollop of helium, his voice is unchanged wherever he is. The latter is the operational issue in relationship to my original statement: "Yes, the perceived tonality of the source changes from one acoustic environment to another. " (Emphasis added.) And we might add that the perceived tonality will also be affected by particular position of the source and the listener within those environments.


Grand Central Station is merely 'a bad room' in which to listen to voices, or recordings of voices at a great distance. Of course your attention is going to be drawn to the almost totally dominant reverberant sound - it's simply a case of relative levels of two 'sources' (the voice and the room). In any reasonable listening room and normal distance between listener and speaker, you will hear the friend's voice (or recording thereof) at a satisfactory level, and the reverberation will not dominate. The reverberation will add a sense of 'spaciousness' but it won't affect your perception of the voice.
Agreed and chosen for its extreme effect.

In Grand Central Station, the reverberation wasn't affecting your perception of the voice, it's just that the voice was very quiet; you didn't mistake the reverberation for your friend's voice - you *always* knew it was reverberation.
No. The high level and long decay of the and its long decay are not completely separable at any significant distance and the key to the desirability of some locations within the subway/underground for buskers.
 

DDF

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The quote that «Kahle (2013) and others have suggested that the brain decomposes the auditory scene in a concert hall into distinct streams: the source and the room» is in direct conflict with the Audiolense author who refuses to discuss that the brain makes a decomposition that a microphone does not.

It's been known for many decades that hearing can and does separate the source from the environment. This facility is why we can converse in highly negative SNR environments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocktail_party_effect

This doesn't mean that the environment doesn't influence our perception of the quality or tonality of the over-all experience.
 

Kal Rubinson

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It's been known for many decades that hearing can and does separate the source from the environment. This facility is why we can converse in highly negative SNR environments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocktail_party_effect

This doesn't mean that the environment doesn't influence our perception of the quality or tonality of the over-all experience.
Sure but information extraction is a different task than appreciation of harmonic content.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I agree, that's what my last sentence said as well
Agreed. I was simply trying to link your post to my ongoing discussion with Cosmik.
 

Floyd Toole

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Thanks DDF. Interesting reference - it brings back memories. Colin Cherry, originator of the Cocktail Party effect, was a critical mentor to me when I was deciding on a PhD thesis topic - which ended up being on sound localization. That was 1960, at Imperial College in London.

The other point worth mentioning is that back in the early 1990s, at the NRC in Ottawa, I constructed a flexible-geometry room complex to examine the effects of the listening room on subjective loudspeaker ratings. The experiments are described in: Olive, S.E., Schuck, P.L., Sally, S.L. and Bonneville, M. (1995). “The Variability of Loudspeaker Sound Quality Among Four Domestic Sized Rooms”, 99thConvention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 4092. and also in Section 7.6.2 in the 3rd edition of my book. There were three very closely ranked and very good speakers in the test - it was not easy. The rooms were very different. Real-time double-blind listening tests were done, as well as time shifted binaural versions of those tests. Binaural results and live results closely agreed. The key finding was that when listeners did the multiple randomized comparisons in the same room, each of the four rooms in turn, the sound quality ratings were very similar. This was also true when the experience was through calibrated insert earphones using binaural recordings. The significant variable was the loudspeaker, and the room was not a significant factor. However, when the binaural recordings were presented in randomized sequence, not permitting the listeners to adapt to the room, the room became the dominant factor and the loudspeaker was not a significant factor. So, it is undoubtedly true that the room modifies the overall sound, but it is also true that with an opportunity to adapt to the room, listeners were able to decide on the relative merits of the loudspeakers in the same way in very different rooms. Clearly we have significant ability to "listen through" rooms.
 

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Guermantes

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The need to have time to adapt to the room that Dr Toole has mentioned rings true with me. And it's not just rooms: we seem perfectly able to adapt to speakers and headphones in a general sense even with their many idiosyncrasies (the infamous "burning-in" of components).

I'm also very conscious that the sound of performance acoustics seems to generally become problematic when listening back to recordings made in them. This is why recording acoustic instruments is always a challenge, first to capture the sound of the instrument faithfully, then to capture the overall acoustic in a way that enhances rather than detracts from the sound of the instrument.

But can we confidently say that we "listen through" rooms at low frequencies (perhaps I need to see what Bregman says about stream separation in lower pitches)? It seems to me that room EQ is primarily aimed at room modes and this may be the best area of application for it. In my work room, the major problems are below 100 Hz and the application of EQ (Genelec's GLM) does tighten that area up.
 
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DDF

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Thanks DDF. Interesting reference - it brings back memories. Colin Cherry, originator of the Cocktail Party effect, was a critical mentor to me when I was deciding on a PhD thesis topic - which ended up being on sound localization. That was 1960, at Imperial College in London.

It's a small world! I first heard the term while working in the audio design team at BNR down the road from the NRC ~ 1990, during a talk from a member of the NRC technical staff. Mark (co-author of the 1995 study) worked there briefly as well.

Thanks for the reference, that's one I don't have, and it sounds interesting. At the risk of reading too much into this, it seems users are able to train themselves to adapt to a room. Was there any trend in how long this training took? It would be interesting to compare it to some of Harmon's other internal training programs. This could provide a relative benchmark: it takes as long to train to a room as to train to hear "xyz" impairment (for example, some distortion threshold). To me, that would help with understanding the relative impairment created by a room.

The reason this may be interesting is that it's also worth exploring the impact this all has on listening fatigue. Listeners are able to ignore numerous impairments as they navigate the sound field and pick out the source. However, this requires continuous unconscious effort and is a primary cause of listening fatigue. While users can listen through rooms, I would strongly suspect that some rooms are easier to live with than others!
 

Floyd Toole

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It's a small world! I first heard the term while working in the audio design team at BNR down the road from the NRC ~ 1990, during a talk from a member of the NRC technical staff. Mark (co-author of the 1995 study) worked there briefly as well.

Thanks for the reference, that's one I don't have, and it sounds interesting. At the risk of reading too much into this, it seems users are able to train themselves to adapt to a room. Was there any trend in how long this training took? It would be interesting to compare it to some of Harmon's other internal training programs. This could provide a relative benchmark: it takes as long to train to a room as to train to hear "xyz" impairment (for example, some distortion threshold). To me, that would help with understanding the relative impairment created by a room.

The reason this may be interesting is that it's also worth exploring the impact this all has on listening fatigue. Listeners are able to ignore numerous impairments as they navigate the sound field and pick out the source. However, this requires continuous unconscious effort and is a primary cause of listening fatigue. While users can listen through rooms, I would strongly suspect that some rooms are easier to live with than others!

I guess you just have to read the 3rd edition of my book, because the answers to your important questions are lengthy. First, the Harman (with an "a") training program merely teaches listeners to recognize and describe resonances - the major cause of colorations in loudspeakers - in a way that makes their comments useful to design engineers. That is all, and you can download it and train yourself.. http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com

We definitely adapt to rooms - it is absolutely subconscious, requiring no "training", and it takes almost no time to result in improved speech intelligibility as has been confirmed in several experiments mentioned in my book. Beyond that, it depends on how seriously the sound is corrupted. Obviously there are limits to adaptation (visual as well as auditory). We did many experiments to define those limits so that major problems can be recognized and attenuated.

Does adaptation result in "listener fatigue"? There is no data that I am aware of. All I can say is that following the guidance provided by the science summarized in my book, I have been able to relax and thoroughly enjoy as much sound as time allows. Humans evolved to listen in somewhat reflective spaces, at least the ground under our feet, so this kind of adaptation is "programmed in". The sound of a room is not an "Impairment", it is absolutely natural and desirable. Just go listen in an anechoic chamber for a while :)

About 30% of our overall opinions of sound quality relates to the bass, and if one starts with neutral loudspeakers this is the primary room acoustic problem to be solved. Chapters 8 and 9 explain how. This is something that must be done in situ.
 

Cosmik

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Even if people reluctantly agree to entertain the idea that, perhaps, the listener adapts to the room (and they have to do it reluctantly and without commitment because in doing so they are effectively questioning the validity of 'room correction'), the nature of that adaptation is another question. I think some people are assuming that it is an adaptation to a frequency response profile or something like that, which still leaves the issue in confusion; perhaps a mic and FFT *can* simulate the adaptation after all; but then again how does the mic know what is signal and what is room in order to adapt?, etc.

A more satisfying explanation is that it is not frequency response, nor is it 'adaptation' as such: it is a 'reading' of the acoustic scene. And this reading is not based on frequency response, but is an analysis of sound fields using two ears, conscious and subconscious head movement, pre-processing hardware in the ears, plus software/firmware in the brain.

It *requires* transient acoustic stimuli (which is why the testing that concentrates so much on steady tones is a red herring - although it is easy to visualise and understand). So it is much more than can be done with a mic and FFT, but it is not supernatural: a computer and robot could be trained to analyse an acoustic scene and isolate a source without using mathematics as such (e.g. using artificial neural networks). This would be similar to blind deconvolution but not so blind - the system would be actively acquiring the information needed to assess what could only be signal versus what could only be reflections.
 

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Thanks for the quick response. I had wondered if Harman performed internal training for their internal threshold assessment testing. It was standard protocol in our DBT studies. Not relevant given your results showed such fast user adjustment in rooms. Thanks again for sharing your research. Looks like I'll need to upgrade my copy of your book, I'm interested to see how closely your test results match industry standard STI.

Regarding listening fatigue, I'm not aware of any formal quantification of it, but user experience points towards adaptation to impairment or compensation of missing information being possible or probable causes
https://www.waves.com/how-to-avoid-ear-fatigue-while-mixing
and attached.

I also agree with you that a room isn't an "impairment" taken on whole and than anechoic chambers are musical waste lands (see my previous post you had liked ;)). That anechoic chambers are one end of a bad room spectrum doesn't mean that bad reflective rooms don't exist. I thinks its impossible to argue that you can't improve various aspects of the sound of stereo system through different room types, placements or furnishing and treatment.
 

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Floyd Toole

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JJ's summary includes several fundamentally different factors. I agree, there is no simple answer.

There is no doubt that exposure to loud sounds causes "fatigue" in hair cells - a physical process. It results in temporary hearing loss, which becomes permanent if repeated. I don't know of any evidence that we are consciously aware of this as it happens, we just hear fewer low-level sounds. Fatiguing in the presently discussed sense? Probably not.

Higher level perceptual processes could conceivably lead to listener fatigue in the sense being discussed here. I have experienced countless loudspeakers with clearly audible resonances. These are definitely annoying and distracting because of their monotonous modifications in the timbre of everything that is played. Fatiguing? Probably. The one characteristic of neutral, non-resonant, spectrally-balanced loudspeakers is how easy they are to listen to for extended periods. I get annoyed by poor recordings, but the "stop" icon eliminates that.

"Johnny one note" bass caused by prominent room resonances also qualifies as a tiresome perceptual experience - probably fatiguing. A few movies I have heard seem to use the same explosion sound over and over again - it has the same tonal quality. It can happen in recordings too: Real explosions do not "boom" - they are compression waves, without pitch. Some sound tracks manage to convey that experience if one has extended non-resonant bass in subwoofers. Annoying, yes. Fatiguing?

One could very likely say that high levels of non-linear distortion are fatiguing. Fortunately such events are rare in modern audio gear. Perceptual simultaneous masking helps a lot. Is masking fatiguing? I very much doubt it.

I find excessive compression, the lack of variety in sound levels and dynamics, in recorded programs to be tiresome, and it irritates me . . . fatiguing.? This is a cognitive process.

And on, and on . . .
 

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Clearly we have significant ability to "listen through" rooms.
Having read the recent edition of your book, I had this discussion with a friend, just a week ago.

And the question that popped was: would the results have been the same if rooms in the study had significantly dissimilar RT60’s, and not 0,3+-0,1s as in the study presented? For example what if two of the four rooms had RT60 of 0.6-0.7?

With modern minimalistic living spaces, having open kitchens/living rooms with light furnishings and large glass surfaces, we cannot assume anymore that the median RT60 in our homes is around 0.3-0.4s, as it used to be (there’s a study that you refer to in your book with median RT60 of 0.4s).

And then the next question would be: in which of the rooms we will enjoy to listen to music, and for how long (as mentioned in this thread already). In a room with RT60 of 0.6s or in room of 0.3s?
Do we have double-blind studies on this?
 

Floyd Toole

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Having read the recent edition of your book, I had this discussion with a friend, just a week ago.

And the question that popped was: would the results have been the same if rooms in the study had significantly dissimilar RT60’s, and not 0,3+-0,1s as in the study presented? For example what if two of the four rooms had RT60 of 0.6-0.7?

With modern minimalistic living spaces, having open kitchens/living rooms with light furnishings and large glass surfaces, we cannot assume anymore that the median RT60 in our homes is around 0.3-0.4s, as it used to be (there’s a study that you refer to in your book with median RT60 of 0.4s).

And then the next question would be: in which of the rooms we will enjoy to listen to music, and for how long (as mentioned in this thread already). In a room with RT60 of 0.6s or in room of 0.3s?
Do we have double-blind studies on this?

If I had not left the NRCC to join Harman, perhaps we would have some studies on the effects of RT. It was on the list. But all activities ceased.

When I was involved with the IEC standards group that developed the first standard for loudspeaker listening tests back in 1985 (IEC 268-13, now 60268-13) this was a topic of discussion. The Scandinavian representatives lived in rooms more sparsely furnished and more reverberant than those typical of Central Europe, Canada and the US. The majority ruled, but in real life differences remain. Your example is not uncommon in this culture, and people living in steamy southern climates have rooms made of hard materials that do not rot and grow mold in the dampness.

As the audio world has evolved to include multichannel audio, there is now a way for many people to experiment by playing with the surround channel levels and/or upmixer parameters. This is different, of course, from varying local acoustics when listening to raw stereo, but there is a crude connection.

Is 0.6s RT better or worse than 0.3s? It depends on your expectations. Some people clearly like large "open" spacious illusions and others do not. It has always been so, which is why there are acoustical materials to tailor circumstances to your liking. They will be difficult to install in a "1950s/60s modern" house, with open floor plans and floor-to-ceiling windows all around. The architects of such houses obviously did not consider acoustics at all, as they are difficult even to carry on a conversation in. However, they do make good settings for artistic photographs of loudspeakers and Eames chairs. Our California ranch house is not very different, and it now is fitted with significant areas of absorbing material stealthily installed - in the home theater room and also in other rooms where we socialize. My Eames chairs are in a civilized acoustical setting:)
 

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I went to the symphony again tonight (balcony seats, no skimming loss!). Mahler's 5th, glorious!

I can respect that we "listen through rooms" and may grade speakers equitably in relation to each other in different rooms. However, based on my many trips to the symphony in different halls and confirmed again tonight, I seriously doubt this can be extrapolated to mean that small room reflections don't permanently colour the timbre. No way, notta. I'm going to continue exploring the floor reflection because regardless of our evolution, (probably) every speaker I hear on stands is missing weight in the upper bass compared to a live symphony.

When I arrived home, I bumped into my neighbour walking the dog. He'd just converted his early 70's home into open concept. Without prompting or any prior discussion of the topic he asserted "I hate the sound! When I listen to my stereo, I get fatigued. This never happened before the reno. Is that a word for this, fatigued?" I couldn't make this up. I felt for him but I couldn't help but smile inside. Its a big world out there with many experiences not yet proven by a scientific study.
 
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Floyd Toole

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I went to the symphony again tonight (balcony seats, no skimming loss!). Mahler's 5th, glorious!

I can respect that we "listen through rooms" and may grade speakers equitably in relation to each other in different rooms. However, based on my many trips to the symphony in different halls and confirmed again tonight, I seriously doubt this can be extrapolated to mean that small room reflections don't permanently colour the timbre. No way, notta. I'm going to continue exploring the floor reflection because regardless of our evolution, (probably) every speaker I hear on stands is missing weight in the upper bass compared to a live symphony.

When I arrived home, I bumped into my neighbour walking the dog. He'd just converted his early 70's home into open concept. Without prompting or any prior discussion of the topic he asserted "I hate the sound! When I listen to my stereo, I get fatigued. This never happened before the reno. Is that a word for this, fatigued?" I couldn't make this up. I felt for him but I couldn't help but smile inside. Its a big world out there with many experiences not yet proven by a scientific study.

I assume you were at the National Arts Center. If so, when in Ottawa I was a regular and my chosen seats were front mezzanine to avoid the seat-dip effect (which takes about 3 rows to develop) and sucks the mid bass level down. I designed the first "hifi" audio system for the hall (the original was truly PA only) and did a lot of measurements in it. It eventually got replaced as modern pop groups insisted on deafening sound levels. I remember measuring one of the roadie installations and discovered several loudspeaker drivers connected out of phase :). They were glad, but . . .

Your neighbor was undoubtedly "fatigued" by excessive reverberation. It is an awful affliction to live with.

As for doing more science, it seems that reality has done much of it for us. If we are to reproduce what the artists created (circle of confusion), a useful benchmark is the acoustical performance of mixing and mastering rooms. They are not consistent, but typically are slightly deader than typically furnished homes. The 0.3-0.4s RT range is common, but a few are even lower - like the "non-room" philosophy. None that I know of are higher. It matters most in raw stereo, and there it is not so much the RT per se, but the early reflection levels. With multichannel or upmixed stereo the room matters less. Personally, I almost always use judicious upmixing for stereo sources - as a regular concert goer here in LA (Disney Hall) I appreciate envelopment. Front terrace seats, naturally :)
 

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... I have always found outside rock concerts sound infinitely better than in an enclosed arena.
...
Me too, but mainly because indoor rock concerts are so freaking loud, standard 29 dB foam earplugs are not enough to protect my ears. It feels like the music will reduce the structural integrity of my skull! When outdoors, those ludicrous volumes seem to drop to merely ridiculous levels that are more tolerable. I have a low-ish personal loudness threshold for discomfort and pain.

... We definitely adapt to rooms - it is absolutely subconscious, requiring no "training", and it takes almost no time to result in improved speech intelligibility as has been confirmed in several experiments mentioned in my book.
...
Does adaptation result in "listener fatigue"? There is no data that I am aware of. All I can say is that following the guidance provided by the science summarized in my book, I have been able to relax and thoroughly enjoy as much sound as time allows....
Thinking of the example of someone's voice changing as they move around the house while talking, adaption seems so automatic and subconscious, it may require training to become aware we're doing it! That is, to become consciously aware of the perceptual process and examine the actual sound changes in timbre, loudness, echo, etc.

I find that adaptation doesn't generally cause listener fatIgue, but it can in some environments. For example, I find overly live listening rooms (or headphones!) fatiguing. And adapting to the loud background noise while talking to someone in a restaurant or party can become fatiguing. Of course, I wonder whether the fatigue is caused by the loud noise or the adaptation. I think both contribute.
 

Kal Rubinson

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Thinking of the example of someone's voice changing as they move around the house while talking, adaption seems so automatic and subconscious, it may require training to become aware we're doing it! That is, to become consciously aware of the perceptual process and examine the actual sound changes in timbre, loudness, echo, etc.
It is fortunate that the adaptation is "so automatic and subconscious" and it fits with the fundamental mechanisms of adaptation and habituation. To become consciously aware of the process takes effort and is easily exhausted because it is competing with the on-going adaptation.
 
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