An audio engineer explains why Dolby Atmos Music is “definitely going to supersede stereo”

[Blumlein 88]

Firstly we should make a distinction between Atmos as
1) a content delivery format and
2) as the latest and greatest Dolby object based multichannel surround offering with height channels.
(They should have had different names if you ask me).

If, when you think of Atmos, you first think of 2) (the multichannel surround format) then you may think that marketing a stereo soundbar as an Atmos product is deception. (I'd tend to agree).

Despite this, I can see some potential benefits of 1) Atmos as a content delivery format. For example:

The audio world is in severe need of standardisation. (Thinking of the loudness wars here). If Dolby could force an end to this it would be great.

Also it could be great to have a single file for each content item, that is downmixed appropriately for the current playback device. I.e. you no longer need a separate stereo version, a 5.1 version, a 7.1 version, a 7.1.4 version, ...etc.

You shouldn't (in theory) be losing anything if you want to stick with stereo, just use a stereo playback device (or configure one that way) and Atmos should give you the stereo version of the content.

The audio world is in severe need of standardisation. (Thinking of the loudness wars here). If Dolby could force an end to this it would be great.

Absolutely the very last thing Dolby would do. How can you even have a conception of this? Dolby wants standardization yes. Dolby wants to then change that standard every few years. Their worst nightmare for their business plan is to develop a long term standard that stays in place for decades.

So no, they will use it as a content delivery format as they can monetize it. And come on, we have a 9 channel plus delivery format and it is standard because it can downmix to better than average stereo. NO! We can just have stereo simpler and better.

 

[lashto]

Firstly we should make a distinction between Atmos as
1) a content delivery format and
2) as the latest and greatest Dolby object based multichannel surround offering with height channels.
(They should have had different names if you ask me).

If, when you think of Atmos, you first think of 2) (the multichannel surround format) then you may think that marketing a stereo soundbar as an Atmos product is deception. (I'd tend to agree).

It's seriously confusing indeed. May very well be on purpose.

The audio world is in severe need of standardisation.

Don't know, I usually prefer diversity. But neither of those is a sure solution.
However, the effects of standardization are for sure when proprietary formats are involved. There will be an instant wind of change in your wallet.

(Thinking of the loudness wars here). If Dolby could force an end to this it would be great.

That would be so good..
But it sounds like wishful thinking. It was the corporate music industry that created the loudness, why shall we assume that the same people can fix it !? (or even want to)

Also it could be great to have a single file for each content item, that is downmixed appropriately for the current playback device. I.e. you no longer need a separate stereo version, a 5.1 version, a 7.1 version, a 7.1.4 version, ...etc.

You shouldn't (in theory) be losing anything if you want to stick with stereo, just use a stereo playback device (or configure one that way) and Atmos should give you the stereo version of the content.

yes, there could be many, many wonderful benefits.
The downside looks a lot bigger to me, though. And with proprietary stuff, that is the only side you get for sure

 

[theREALdotnet]

I don’t have much interest in multi-channel music, perhaps due to a bad experience many years ago with a DVDA (or SACD?) that contained 5.1 versions of some pop music I liked. The experience was just weird and unpleasant.

About a week ago I encountered this video:

It talks about how Apple Music downmixes Atmos tracks to stereo in real time, and how great that sounds. I’ve been trying this for a week now and must say I’m as impressed as the creator of this video. Like him, I had no idea that Apple Music would play Atmos content over a regular stereo system, and like him I‘m impressed with the much improved dynamic range and natural sound that comes out of those Atmos tracks.

The video also contains some interesting technical tidbits about the many different renditions of a track Apple Music offers for download, to suit different playback situations.

To anyone with a fairly recent Mac, iPhone or iPad connected to a USB DAC I’d say, give this a shot. The difference is not subtle.

 

[-Matt-]

The audio world is in severe need of standardisation. (Thinking of the loudness wars here). If Dolby could force an end to this it would be great.

Absolutely the very last thing Dolby would do. How can you even have a conception of this?

It is my understanding that they already have in place quite strict controls about peak and average levels etc in their publishing tools. They are well placed to help solve this problem.


By the way, I agree with the general dislike of proprietary formats. But since any box I buy is already going to have a Dolby sticker on it to allow it to decode surround formats, for me, it wouldn't really make much difference if the standard format for music distribution became Atmos).

And come on, we have a 9 channel plus delivery format and it is standard because it can downmix to better than average stereo. NO! We can just have stereo simpler and better.

Isn't the point that, for future releases, the Atmos version downmixed to stereo and the stereo version will be one and the same? The only difference is that with the Atmos version you automatically have the original information available if you wish to playback to more channels so that your AVR won't have to resort to guesswork.

(I must admit to being a bit confused about the spatial audio part of Atmos. Isn't this virtual surround on stereo playback optional and dependent on playback device settings? Spatial audio seems to be a 3rd part of the confusing overall Atmos picture).

On the simplicity point - playing one file should be no different to playing another from a user point of view.

...or are you concerned about the additional download size? Are you still using that 56k modem?!!

 

[Godataloss]

Your loss Mr Flintstone.

Oh my Lord, no your right AVR's haven't improved one little bit.
Talk about a load of FUDD.

As I've mentioned before, been there, done that. Putting a pc back into my home theater system would not be progress in my mind in any way, shape or form and should not be necessary today unless you are unwilling to pay for content. If you re-read my post, I clearly said 'affordable avrs'. Considering the lowest point of entry worth considering in the current market is at least a grand and it gets you middling power, I fail to see how my statement is inaccurate. I would gladly pay $1k or more for a worthy processor, preamp alone, but the market and standards are so screwed up, who could have any faith that any of the available products will still be functional in 5-10 years? I love home theater and have always had one, but there is a reason my 2 channel rig has gotten all the money-love the last decade- home theater tech is a mess.

 

[lashto]

About a week ago I encountered this video:
..."the revelation that is Dolby Atmos music downmixed to Stereo"...

It talks about how Apple Music downmixes Atmos tracks to stereo in real time, and how great that sounds. I’ve been trying this for a week now and must say I’m as impressed as the creator of this video.

sooo, that is the 'true genius' move...

The improvements demo-ed in the video are great. They just don't have anything to do with Atmos/downmixing. Any good remix will do the same.

The exact same trick/strategy was used for MQA and it's such a classic play: first create a huge problem (e.g. loudness wars) and then sell a proprietary solution to 'fix' it.
Just another 'genius' variation of Microsoft's embrace extend exterminate (EEE).

Kinda changed my mind about the Atmos-everywhere 'prediction' in the OP article.
Here's one sure prediction to bet on: people will never fail to bite the EEE bait!

 

[Deleted member 19122]

I don't know but I can guess.

Either
Amazon's developers are incapable of getting it to work
Or
There is a 3rd party hardware or software component in the fire stick which prevents them bitstreaming the encoded data over HDMI.
Or
they support both Atmos and Sony 360 Reality Audio (which is their branding for MPEG-H), MPEG-H has zero AVR support it's possible there is some kind of most favoured nation clause in their agreement with Sony that prevents them doing stuff with Atmos that can't also be done with MPEG-H

Amazon cripples stuff on purpose because they are too cheap or working for the studios.They killed HD audio that people were streaming from apps like Kodi on the FS so everyone just went out and bought a Nvidia Shield pro and junked their Firesticks.The Amazon version of success!

 

[AdamG247]

I don’t have much interest in multi-channel music, perhaps due to a bad experience many years ago with a DVDA (or SACD?) that contained 5.1 versions of some pop music I liked. The experience was just weird and unpleasant.

About a week ago I encountered this video:

It talks about how Apple Music downmixes Atmos tracks to stereo in real time, and how great that sounds. I’ve been trying this for a week now and must say I’m as impressed as the creator of this video. Like him, I had no idea that Apple Music would play Atmos content over a regular stereo system, and like him I‘m impressed with the much improved dynamic range and natural sound that comes out of those Atmos tracks.

The video also contains some interesting technical tidbits about the many different renditions of a track Apple Music offers for download, to suit different playback situations.

To anyone with a fairly recent Mac, iPhone or iPad connected to a USB DAC I’d say, give this a shot. The difference is not subtle.

Excellent teaching Video. Who knew Atmos downmixing would restore the original dynamic range. Atmos is the new Compression killer? Thanks for posting this video. So much going on under the hood here. In a good way this time.

Stereo Peep should be very excited about this. Let us know in follow up comments please. Have you tried this and what was your experience/impression?

 

[Spkrdctr]

Hey, if the Atmos soundbars work, we don't need anything else. I can pull down my surround system, put in the soundbar, save money, space and get SOTA movie and music sound. Or they are full of shite. Which do you think it is?

Now I can believe the full object oriented 9 channel or more Atmos might be fantastic. Otherwise Dolby is just being Dolby. Money making machine to the detriment of the industry.

My soundbar is amazing. They have come a long way in the last few years. It easily replaced my entire home theater and did a better job of HT to boot!

 

[AdamG247]

My soundbar is amazing. They have come a long way in the last few years. It easily replaced my entire home theater and did a better job of HT to boot!

Surely you jest? Did you forget to use the sarcasm emoji? If your fishing you already have one on the line…..

 

[Spkrdctr]

Surely you jest? Did you forget to use the sarcasm emoji? If your fishing you already have one on the line…..

I hate to say this but the best thing I did was go to a sound bar. Now, it will not play 120db for movies but I would never listen at that level. It will easily play 95db and sound amazing. There are some "buts" in this, I will not ever get the wall shaking, window rattling, ceiling damaging bass. Other than that though, oh another but, I am in a smaller area and not a big room. A big room would start to stress a lot of systems. So within the small to medium room situation, it really is a super easy plug and play adjustable/tunable system that puts out amazing sound. When the wife listens to music with it, I am shocked how good it sounds. The engineers really are making major progress and it shows. My sound bar is the Vizio Elevate set up. It is quite good and for the price? Amazing. Now compared to a killer home theater that costs 7 times as much or more, no it will probably not satisfy in a head to head comparison. But that is normal.

 

[Philbo King]

Hmmm. Anyone else here old enough to remember the failed Quadraphonic systems?

Hah... I still use one (4 full range speakers driven by a Yamaha surround receiver). And love it.

 

[sq225917]

It's just another shill train fed by a proprietary file format. Atmos does nothing for two channel stereo that any other remix couldn't achieve.

 

[Newman]

It's just another shill train fed by a proprietary file format. Atmos does nothing for two channel stereo that any other remix couldn't achieve.

Do you have some evidence for your second sentence?

 

[Sal1950]

Hey, if the Atmos soundbars work, we don't need anything else. I can pull down my surround system, put in the soundbar, save money, space and get SOTA movie and music sound. Or they are full of shite. Which do you think it is?

It's BS, we all know that.
On they other hand if the consumers like them that could be a big win for the audio community.
The last thing I would want to see happen is the current popularity of multich music (in it's many forms) to fail like the quad did back in the day.
Multich sound has always had the ability to offer a superior musical experience than plain stereo. The cost of entry and things like WAF has always held it back. If very inferior use of the modern offerings into things like soundbars and bouncy-house vertically aimed base speaker brings a little extra enjoyment to Joe Sixpack and ensures the success of surround sound this time around, I'm all for it..
They never understood or cared for basic stereo anyway, with the wife putting the 2 speakers wherever she thought they looked best.

I don’t have much interest in multi-channel music, perhaps due to a bad experience many years ago with a DVDA (or SACD?) that contained 5.1 versions of some pop music I liked. The experience was just weird and unpleasant.

How could that be? I have many of those discs and I have never experienced them that way?
Did you listen to them properly played back on a correctly configured 5.1 quality audio system.

 

[theREALdotnet]

The improvements demo-ed in the video are great. They just don't have anything to do with Atmos/downmixing. Any good remix will do the same.

I don’t have any idea why the Atmos mixes are so much better (just look at those Audacity wave forms!), I kind of doubt that it happens on the Mac during stereo down-mixing. It would be magical if it did. I’m assuming that whoever produces the Atmos mixes for Apple Music just take great care or has access to better masters. Or perhaps that Atmos necessitates a better dynamic range, crest factor, etc. No idea. In the end, it’s the result that counts. I’m not here to wave the Dolby flag, just wanted to point the stereo folk at something worthwhile giving a try, that happens to be Atmos related.

The exact same trick/strategy was used for MQA and it's such a classic play: first create a huge problem (e.g. loudness wars) and then sell a proprietary solution to 'fix' it.
Just another 'genius' variation of Microsoft's embrace extend exterminate (EEE).

I think you’re conflating a few things here. It wasn’t Meridian who created the loudness wars. I also don’t remember MQA tracks to sound better (or even significantly different) than their regular versions.

 

[Sal1950]

It's just another shill train fed by a proprietary file format. Atmos does nothing for two channel stereo that any other remix couldn't achieve.

I don’t have any idea why the Atmos mixes are so much better (just look at those Audacity wave forms!), I kind of doubt that it happens on the Mac during stereo down-mixing. It would be magical if it did. I’m assuming that whoever produces the Atmos mixes for Apple Music just take great care or has access to better masters.

My understanding here is that your comment is both right and wrong.
When Atmos is done correctly the engineer is going back to the original masters to mix the Atmos release.
You can't mix an Atmos or any other multich from a 2ch source.
IME a large number of these people (think Steven Wilson) would rather slit their wrists than create a highly squashed release.
So if these are the Atmos remasters your streaming, yes, they are wide DR mixes.
OTOH so much is coming out at a crazy rate the provanace of these mixes is a mystery.

 

[theREALdotnet]

It's just another shill train fed by a proprietary file format. Atmos does nothing for two channel stereo that any other remix couldn't achieve.

Then why don’t they? What’s holding them back?

You can switch back and forth between the lossless and Atmos version of an Apple Music track to compare. There is a delay of a second or so, but it doesn’t matter, because the difference is stark.

Are you saying that Apple approached Dolby and said “ok, we’ll produce the kinds of mixes that people have been wanting for the last 20 years if you let us ride on the coat tails of your Atmos branding”?

 

[lashto]

I hate to say this but the best thing I did was go to a sound bar. Now, it will not play 120db for movies but I would never listen at that level. It will easily play 95db and sound amazing. There are some "buts" in this, I will not ever get the wall shaking, window rattling, ceiling damaging bass. Other than that though, oh another but, I am in a smaller area and not a big room. A big room would start to stress a lot of systems. So within the small to medium room situation, it really is a super easy plug and play adjustable/tunable system that puts out amazing sound. When the wife listens to music with it, I am shocked how good it sounds. The engineers really are making major progress and it shows. My sound bar is the Vizio Elevate set up. It is quite good and for the price? Amazing. Now compared to a killer home theater that costs 7 times as much or more, no it will probably not satisfy in a head to head comparison. But that is normal.

Interesting. I also wanted that soundbar simplicity but everything I tried was way below my threshold for even "ok" sound. For both stereo & surround.

Btw, the single one I found almost convincing was a Yamaha monster-bar. It looked approx like this. Also had a big sbwoofer companion with more than enough wall-shaking & rattling. However, it was in a small demo room, don't think it will fill a regular room as well.

 

[krabapple]

You can get Spacial Audio/Atmos via most headphones and IEM’s already. Is it the same? Not really but it gives you a taste of what it can sound like with actual speakers . You don’t need Genelects for surround/height channels. Go slow and dip your toes in with building up your base level speakers first. 7.1 or 7.2. If you like that and want more. Then move into some height/ceiling speakers. They can be just your average surround speaker at first.

Hmm, is that really the way to go? 7.x systems (where x = subs) have existed for awhile, though actual content with that many channels hasn't, but those are front and side and back speakers, and I thought the new twist for Atmos was the use of height speakers.

I'm pretty sure 5.x systems are more prevalent that 7.x systems currently. So a 'dip your toes in' move would more likely be, add two height speakers to a 5.x, system...no? Dolby has published recommended 5.x + heights configurations for Atmos.

It's what I'll probably do when I feel like buying a new ladder to put up ceiling speakers. ;> I have some spare Paradigm Cinema 100s that should do fine for that, I am guessing speaker matching to the ground-based speakers is not crucial for the heights.