Amplifiers can you hear a diffrence?

[balletboy]

Ok even its not audible that it measure not so good. But indeed we are talking best choice budget.
yamaha r n803d.
that one got everything even room correction.
also 100 watt. So this amplifier in my room with my speakers will have inaudible differences with benchmark ahb2 and dac3 ?

I tried my Harbeth with a 70w LFD amplifier and was not that impressed. At the Bristol Audio Show Harbeth demonstrated with a Quad Solus at 75w, but that was in a small room. Having tested with quite a few amplifiers, I came to the conclusion 150w is the sweet spot after which more power won't bring you anything more. So 100w may sell you short. You can use Harbeth with a 35w amplifier, but the sound will not be optimum.

Harbeth have been around since 1977. Since Alan Shaw took over in the 1980s he has designed with Quad amplifiers. He has used them exclusively for over 40 years, has a stack of them and gets them serviced every 10 years. A service cost £60 and a re-cap £40 last time I did one. Quad QMP current dumper from the 405/2, 606, 909, QSP and Artera are largely unchanged over decades. Made in huge quantities, very reliable, so cheap to buy and sell for what you paid. I've used 4 models (909 stereo, 909 mono, QSP, QMP). They've been around so long nobody measures them anymore because there's no point. It is an extremely common pairing, also Rega amplifiers.

With the Yamaha you will still need a streamer. If you look at the Yamaha, I would look at something with a bit more power, but they are meant to be excellent and certainly very good value. The manufacturer makes very little profit - I checked!

I suggest you go to the Harbeth forum and ask for advice there. The only other regular I know from that forum who I've seen posts here has a Quad QSP.

 

[mhardy6647]

What is interesting is that Benchmark has this whole “first watt” theory, that performance at low output levels is critical for superior audio performance.

On their site they have a discussion of this theory, and the results of an ABX test they claim easily showed that their AHB2 was distinguished from a decent competitor at a low power level.

Sorry for this little drive-by -- but, AFAIK, the "First Watt" doctrine per se traces its roots back to Dick Olsher, per Nelson Pass.
http://www.firstwatt.com/

That said, the (in)famous loudspeaker bon vivant and curmudgeon Col. Paul W. Klipsch, long ago was reputed to have quipped

What [the world] needs is a good five-watt amplifier

https://www.klipsch.com/quotes-anecdotes

 

[Pjetrof]

Sorry for this little drive-by -- but, AFAIK, the "First Watt" doctrine per se traces its roots back to Dick Olsher, per Nelson Pass.
http://www.firstwatt.com/

That said, the (in)famous loudspeaker bon vivant and curmudgeon Col. Paul W. Klipsch, long ago was reputed to have quipped

https://
Ant here we can start al over again,

What I know for sure is that we humans experience music not always the same. I think we all have to agree.
Some times we are sad, happy, sober, drunk, very drunk etc you get my point.
There for just listening to equipment make no sense what so ever.
But who is right all the measurement and science, or mr. John Siau, mr. Nelson Pass, etc etc etc

 

[Pjetrof]

I tried my Harbeth with a 70w LFD amplifier and was not that impressed. At the Bristol Audio Show Harbeth demonstrated with a Quad Solus at 75w, but that was in a small room. Having tested with quite a few amplifiers, I came to the conclusion 150w is the sweet spot after which more power won't bring you anything more. So 100w may sell you short. You can use Harbeth with a 35w amplifier, but the sound will not be optimum.

Harbeth have been around since 1977. Since Alan Shaw took over in the 1980s he has designed with Quad amplifiers. He has used them exclusively for over 40 years, has a stack of them and gets them serviced every 10 years. A service cost £60 and a re-cap £40 last time I did one. Quad QMP current dumper from the 405/2, 606, 909, QSP and Artera are largely unchanged over decades. Made in huge quantities, very reliable, so cheap to buy and sell for what you paid. I've used 4 models (909 stereo, 909 mono, QSP, QMP). They've been around so long nobody measures them anymore because there's no point. It is an extremely common pairing, also Rega amplifiers.

With the Yamaha you will still need a streamer. If you look at the Yamaha, I would look at something with a bit more power, but they are meant to be excellent and certainly very good value. The manufacturer makes very little profit - I checked!

I suggest you go to the Harbeth forum and ask for advice there. The only other regular I know from that forum who I've seen posts here has a Quad QSP.

thx with the Yamaha I don t need streamer, as source I just use tidal, and with Yamaha I have this built in.
would it be a big diffrence the 140 Watt from quad compared tot the 100 from Yamaha?

 

[Willem]

With these speakers in that room the 2x100 watt of the Yamaha receiver is probably enough. If you need more, you will probably need quite a bit more, because 150 watt is not that much more than 100 watt. If you can find a good Quad refurbished Quad 606-2 (not the 606), 909 or QSP you wil also have an excellent amplifier, and with a bit more grunt. But you wil need a DAC/preamplifier as well. What sources do you use (the Yamaha covers almost all), and do you have a set budget?

 

[Pjetrof]

Nop no set budget, and as source I just stream music tidal Spotify Qobuz, but 99% tidal.
Cabel I have van Damme the same cable harbeth use in the 40th anniversary, so that’s covert.
for the moment I have at home a topping d50 and ieast streamer. So the Yamaha is a neat solution one box.
But it make no difference cause everything goes in a cupboard. So for the 140 watt for the quad amplifier but to have all the other components still to buy or use what I have, cause no audible differences, I find the Yamaha a cleaner solution, still I prefer more watts. I am a watt believer. I was looking to a pa solution as well just I m not technical enough how to use them and if I can use them at home for example pas 2002pca.

 

[Pjetrof]

Or an other choice Behringer km750?

 

[Blumlein 88]

In order:

Yes - same volume setting. Units are quested with same power output.

Okay, you got the first important step correctly done

This is the difficult one. Besides a rig switching instantly between amplifiers, short sections over a limited time is the post that can be done, ad it was enough to realise the difference between some sounds, but certainly not all of them.

I'm sorry, but hearing a snippet now and again in 20 minutes lacks acuity. Measurements would show differences long, long before you can reliably hear them in this situation. Like it or not assuming you are human, this is of little use. Maybe its the best that can be done, but it is not of any use. Your attempt was doomed to fail. That you think you heard a difference this way is to be expected. And you report you did at least on some sounds.

Who is Hans?

An example of why single blind testing isn't reliable. In other words, you could have been influenced by the dealer doing the switching without you or he realizing it.

The rest of your little hospital story doesn't fit this situation. Sorry, you make claims of your ability to hear things in uncontrolled listening and you'll get called out on it here at ASR. You can learn from it or tell us how special you are. Your methodology as you described it is no doubt very convincing to you, but it is a method that can only mislead.

 

[Art Vandelay]

In my experience all amplifiers have "a sound", or more specifically, a sonic signature that's not necessarily apparent in blind testing but nonetheless exists and is identifiable over time. Usually there's a something in the standard measurements that sheds some light, but not always. In my home system I use a class D amplifier based on Hypex NC1200's to power the woofers in a bi-amped arrangement, and a low distortion class AB amplifier drives the mids tweeters. This delivers the most neutral sound overall, or to be correct, the least identifiable signatures from the amplifiers in the chain.

 

[SIY]

In my experience all amplifiers have "a sound", or more specifically, a sonic signature that's not necessarily apparent in blind testing but nonetheless exists and is identifiable over time.

Sagan's "Dragon In My Garage" is strong here.

If you have to peek to hear it, you can't hear it.

 

[Willem]

Could it be that your experience is just your imagination? My experience tells me something different: if used within their design parameters good amplifiers do not have a sonic personality. Once upon a time when I was much younger I also believed that amplifiers had a 'sound'. That is, until Peter Walker gave me a private blind demo of his three very different amplifier designs. I thought I could distinguish them, but Peter laughed: I had done no better than throwing dice. Lesson learned.
This is not to say that the proviso is not important. The gain matching should be correct, the output impedance should be low, and the power should be abundant enough to prevent clipping on music peaks. All three are audible.

 

[balletboy]

Sagan's "Dragon In My Garage" is strong here.

If you have to peek to hear it, you can't hear it.

Please summarise that article in a line or two so the point you are making is clear.

As suggested by Willem, a sonic signature can be as a result of an amplifier's measurable weaknesses, which can actually make people enjoy listening to them.
No different from enjoying driving a sports car even though it has poor fuel efficiency.
Some people like distortion and there's no point telling them it's bad for them when they enjoy it. Ever tried telling your kids to stop eating an ice cream?

 

[Art Vandelay]

Sagan's "Dragon In My Garage" is strong here.

If you have to peek to hear it, you can't hear it.

Or perhaps you can hear it. Being convinced you're hearing "something" isn't proof in itself, so the challenge is to devise tests to rule out imagination or preconceptions. You need to start with an open mind, and that also includes accepting the possibility that your ears and brain have detected and correlated something.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Could it be that your experience is just your imagination? My experience tells me something different: if used within their design parameters good amplifiers do not have a sonic personality. Once upon a time when I was much younger I also believed that amplifiers had a 'sound'. That is, until Peter Walker gave me a private blind demo of his three very different amplifier designs. I thought I could distinguish them, but Peter laughed: I had done no better than throwing dice. Lesson learned.
This is not to say that the proviso is not important. The gain matching should be correct, the output impedance should be low, and the power should be abundant enough to prevent clipping on music peaks. All three are audible.

With really good amplifiers the signatures are often too subtle to detect in blind tests IME, but they can still be identifiable over time. Whether these (perceived) differences are important is another matter, even if they're not figments of the imagination.

 

[SIY]

Or perhaps you can hear it. Being convinced you're hearing "something" isn't proof in itself, so the challenge is to devise tests to rule out imagination or preconceptions. You need to start with an open mind, and that also includes accepting the possibility that your ears and brain have detected and correlated something.

If my ears detect something, I don't need to peek. If you need to peek, it's not your ears detecting something.

 

[SIY]

Please summarise that article in a line or two so the point you are making is clear.

I can give you an answer, I cannot give you an understanding. If you can't be bothered with a 5 minute read, clearly this is not important to you.

 

[Liberal Democracy]

I can give you an answer, I cannot give you an understanding. If you can't be bothered with a 5 minute read, clearly this is not important to you.

Can you take out my bins please mate and have a little bit of a clear up in my garden too..

Thx.

 

[SIY]

Can you take out my bins please mate and have a little bit of a clear up in my garden too..

Thx.

As Epictetus would say, "And when did I tell you I was a nice person?"

 

[dkinric]

In my experience all amplifiers have "a sound", or more specifically, a sonic signature that's not necessarily apparent in blind testing but nonetheless exists and is identifiable over time. Usually there's a something in the standard measurements that sheds some light, but not always. In my home system I use a class D amplifier based on Hypex NC1200's to power the woofers in a bi-amped arrangement, and a low distortion class AB amplifier drives the mids tweeters. This delivers the most neutral sound overall, or to be correct, the least identifiable signatures from the amplifiers in the chain.

Welcome to the forum! I like the Seinfeld reference.
You should know your opinion on this is not shared by the majority of ASR. In fact, it is the exact opposite and the main focus on this forum that measurements are much more trusted than sighted listening tests. See psychoacoustics and listening bias. I suggest you do a little reading here before making such claims that have been studied and verified.
Cheers!

 

[Liberal Democracy]

As Epictetus would say, "And when did I tell you I was a nice person?"

I will try this response on the Mrs next time she asks .

Thanks in advance.