Amplifiers can you hear a diffrence?

[BDWoody]

It was not a casual listening session.

Well, it wasn't controlled in any way...

A bit more effort is required if you want to set up a meaningful comparison.

 

[balletboy]

Did you maintain the same volume setting at all times during each 20-25 minute session?

You do realize listening for 20+ minutes, plus time to go get dealer to swap, means your acuity to hear differences is dramatically reduced, very dramatically reduced. The chance your brain will falsely cue into to something upon second hearing is also dramatically increased this way. And even more so since you at all times knew when switching had occurred. Even if you didn't know which unit was playing.

Your comparison methodology as described is exceptionally poor. Any real differences would have to be comparatively huge for you to pick up on them. So the most likely result is an extremely high probability you'll hear a difference in the units when none existed. Not to mention possible influence in what was a single blind test in the manner of the Clever Hans problem.

Any difference you perceived that was real in this method would have been large enough to easily measure. The testimony about short sounds of striking wood or metal together sounding different is just the kind of transient with decay your mind goes crazy about creating differences where there were none. You are asking how measurements help assuming your perceived difference was real. It is tremendously more probable there were no audible differences. Finding measurements for what isn't there except as created in your mind is of course not going to happen.

Such methodology is inherently flawed and not worth the time it took for you to type about it or for me to respond. Other than to perhaps illustrate the issues. If you wish to test whether you hear some gear as different, your method isn't a way to successfully accomplish that.

In order:

Yes - same volume setting. Units are quested with same power output.

This is the difficult one. Besides a rig switching instantly between amplifiers, short sections over a limited time is the post that can be done, ad it was enough to realise the difference between some sounds, but certainly not all of them.

Who is Hans?

Classic AMR response (as I've found in two weeks). A says every difference can be measured. B hears a difference and asks A for a relevant measurement, even suggests output impedance. A says it was a figment of B's imagination so measurements irrelevant.

Translate that as follows: A has data that no one ever gets hit by a car on a Tuesday. His friend B calls his from hospital on a Tuesday saying he's just been hit by a car. A tells him that's impossible, he must be imagining it. Unknown to A's data was compiled in the summer when the weather was dry, but the data did not record the weather. Unknown to him it was incomplete to be an accurate predictor. On this particular Tuesday it was raining.

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Yes. Santa Claus is real if you imagine it so.

 

[Pjetrof]

You are asking the wrong question. Most people here seem to base decisions only on measurements. Measures well = good, doesn't measure well = bad. Underlying assumptions appear to be that (a) everything can be measured, and (b) measurements will tell you everything.
I don't think it's got anything to do with listening to the amplifier, or doing a blind comparison of two amplifiers.

Think of it this way. If I gave you the specifications of two pianists playing some music - the exact speed of each finger movement and the amount of force used by each finger, and the same with the pedals. Could you use that data to decide which performance you preferred?

There it is that I have a problem with, you say measure good is good measure bad is bad, same with Dac Same with amplifier etc, for example me, I don’t care who makes it if it’s gold black or yellow if it’s military aluminium grade or plastic from recycled bottles, I don’t care about phono, I have one source that’s tidal that’s it, and yes I listen to music with tears in my eyes so it ain’t background music. So it ain’t being cynical, it’s just after al those replies on my question and previous questions, for my situation my loudspeakers harbeth 30.2 for the rest I have to buy everything. My room is my living room 40 square meters, listening distance 3 meters, speakers apart 2 meters. After reading a lot on this forum after reading a lot on the harbeth forum. I came to the conclusion 150 watt 8 ohm preferable 300 watt 4 ohm. You have people who say less watt other people say more watt, so I think my chose of 150 watt is a bit in the middle. Because i don’t trust people so that include myself, the brain can play tricks. I am interested in the best possible sound. concerning this forum and harbeth forum, and I am inclined to believe those forums, basically it make no sense and it is complete waste of time to go and listen to different amplifiers DACs and streamer Cause no audible difference? If so can you please recommend dac streamer amplifier cables for aprox 1000 euro. Just to be sure will this system have no audible difference with a system from aprox 25k. In my room with my speakers and same wattage?

 

[Pjetrof]

My apologies to all the engineers etc, I was a bookkeeper as profession so no technical background what so ever.
But I believe in figures. So I believe in science, even I don’t understand what all the graphs etc means for the human ear or for the music that comes out those wooden boxes. therefore I look at those sinad graphs, but maybe it would be nice to know for non technical people when a dac is audible as good as the topsport dac or amplifier is audible as good as the top spot amplifier.

 

[Frank Dernie]

There it is that I have a problem with, you say measure good is good measure bad is bad, same with Dac Same with amplifier etc, for example me, I don’t care who makes it if it’s gold black or yellow if it’s military aluminium grade or plastic from recycled bottles, I don’t care about phono, I have one source that’s tidal that’s it, and yes I listen to music with tears in my eyes so it ain’t background music. So it ain’t being cynical, it’s just after al those replies on my question and previous questions, for my situation my loudspeakers harbeth 30.2 for the rest I have to buy everything. My room is my living room 40 square meters, listening distance 3 meters, speakers apart 2 meters. After reading a lot on this forum after reading a lot on the harbeth forum. I came to the conclusion 150 watt 8 ohm preferable 300 watt 4 ohm. You have people who say less watt other people say more watt, so I think my chose of 150 watt is a bit in the middle. Because i don’t trust people so that include myself, the brain can play tricks. I am interested in the best possible sound. concerning this forum and harbeth forum, and I am inclined to believe those forums, basically it make no sense and it is complete waste of time to go and listen to different amplifiers DACs and streamer Cause no audible difference? If so can you please recommend dac streamer amplifier cables for aprox 1000 euro. Just to be sure will this system have no audible difference with a system from aprox 25k. In my room with my speakers and same wattage?

You have probably come to a sensible conclusion on power and a DAC streamer doesn't need to be expensive to be audibly transparent. I am not sure you will get a power amplifier of that power that inexpensive though. Maybe the Behringer A800 would be fine, it has IMHO inaudible levels of distortion but the noise performance is on the limit of what I would normally find OK.
Maybe @sergeauckland could comment?
I loved the Harbeth 30 when I listened to them.

 

[balletboy]

There it is that I have a problem with, you say measure good is good measure bad is bad, same with Dac Same with amplifier etc, for example me, I don’t care who makes it if it’s gold black or yellow if it’s military aluminium grade or plastic from recycled bottles, I don’t care about phono, I have one source that’s tidal that’s it, and yes I listen to music with tears in my eyes so it ain’t background music. So it ain’t being cynical, it’s just after al those replies on my question and previous questions, for my situation my loudspeakers harbeth 30.2 for the rest I have to buy everything. My room is my living room 40 square meters, listening distance 3 meters, speakers apart 2 meters. After reading a lot on this forum after reading a lot on the harbeth forum. I came to the conclusion 150 watt 8 ohm preferable 300 watt 4 ohm. You have people who say less watt other people say more watt, so I think my chose of 150 watt is a bit in the middle. Because i don’t trust people so that include myself, the brain can play tricks. I am interested in the best possible sound. concerning this forum and harbeth forum, and I am inclined to believe those forums, basically it make no sense and it is complete waste of time to go and listen to different amplifiers DACs and streamer Cause no audible difference? If so can you please recommend dac streamer amplifier cables for aprox 1000 euro. Just to be sure will this system have no audible difference with a system from aprox 25k. In my room with my speakers and same wattage?

that makes life really easy. I’ve been using Harbeth for years and have tested with amplifiers from 22w to 300w. You get 98% of performance from 150w Quad amplifier (they are used in the design of the speakers), and old 909 would be fine for €500 but better to get the Quad QSP. Add to that the Bluesound Node 2i to do everything else.

You could of course get any number of nCore amplifiers, but a used Quad QSP is probably cheaper and will never let you down and is easily and cheaply serviced. There is one on eBay.co.uk for £680 from a highly reputable trade seller called Emporium (ask for Nick) who I have used many times and he will ship anywhere.

The Bluesound Powernode 2i is underpowered for your room. Its is only ok in a smaller room or with a sub, but your room is quite large.

The Node 2i is reviewed here.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...surements-of-bluesound-node-2i-streamer.6631/

AMR complains about the Toslink input. You will be using ethernet, so of no relevance to you at all. It has a fantastic app and I love using mine, with Harbeth, and it is rightly highly popular. It also looks good, but mine is hidden under a desk.

 

[QMuse]

My apologies to all the engineers etc, I was a bookkeeper as profession so no technical background what so ever.
But I believe in figures. So I believe in science, even I don’t understand what all the graphs etc means for the human ear or for the music that comes out those wooden boxes. therefore I look at those sinad graphs, but maybe it would be nice to know for non technical people when a dac is audible as good as the topsport dac or amplifier is audible as good as the top spot amplifier.

Keep in mind that even the best loudspeakers tested here have SINAD of 46 (0.5% THD) or worse, so THD of DACs and amps would be masked heavilly by it. Noise can come through, though as speaker is not masking it.

Another thing to consider is that when it comes to loudspeakers THD is not considered one of the paramters to judge quality, althoug it is much much higher than what DACs and amps have.

 

[Frank Dernie]

that makes life really easy. I’ve been using Harbeth for years and have tested with amplifiers from 22w to 300w. You get 98% of performance from 150w Quad amplifier (they are used in the design of the speakers), and old 909 would be fine for €500 but better to get the Quad QSP.

Good choice! I had forgotten Quad, stupid of me.

 

[sergeauckland]

You have probably come to a sensible conclusion on power and a DAC streamer doesn't need to be expensive to be audibly transparent. I am not sure you will get a power amplifier of that power that inexpensive though. Maybe the Behringer A800 would be fine, it has IMHO inaudible levels of distortion but the noise performance is on the limit of what I would normally find OK.
Maybe @sergeauckland could comment?
I loved the Harbeth 30 when I listened to them.

From Amir's review, the noise voltage of the A800 is very slightly more (1 or 2dB) than the noise voltage I measured on my older class AB A500s, and similar to what Amir measured on the A500. With my 'speakers, the noise is very quiet, I can only hear it within, say, 10-20 cm from the driver. The midrange driver is the most sensitive at some 93dB SPL for 2.83v (1w), so if the amp is quiet enough for that, then I would be surprised if it wasn't quiet enough for anything other than very sensitive horns, for example. But then why would anyone want to use a 140 watt amplifier with sensitive horns? I know, dynamics!

I too like Harbeth 'speakers, they do speech well!!

S.

 

[QMuse]

From Amir's review, the noise voltage of the A800 is very slightly more (1 or 2dB) than the noise voltage I measured on my older class AB A500s, and similar to what Amir measured on the A500. With my 'speakers, the noise is very quiet, I can only hear it within, say, 10-20 cm from the driver. The midrange driver is the most sensitive at some 93dB SPL for 2.83v (1w), so if the amp is quiet enough for that, then I would be surprised if it wasn't quiet enough for anything other than very sensitive horns, for example.

Ahh, what a careless post! SINAD wise A500 has measured 67 and Onkyo that is suffering so much bitching has measured 83. From your post one can concude Onkyo is good as well!

I also admire you for expressing your love for Harbeth publicly!

 

[balletboy]

Good choice! I had forgotten Quad, stupid of me.

I think the Quad Artera Power is just a cosmetic change, which makes a used QSP a bargain. They were around £800, £680 is a steal for such power and accuracy.

@Pjetrof if you do speak to Nick, as a deal he will throw in some speaker cables. Otherwise QED79 or Van Damme Blue, basically low inductance multistrand copper.

 

[sergeauckland]

Ahh, what a careless post! SINAD wise A500 has measured 67 and Onkyo that is suffering so much bitching has measured 83. From your post one can concude Onkyo is good as well!

I also admire you for expressing your love for Harbeth publicly!

As far as I'm concerned, a SINAD of 60dB is good enough, provided it's mostly D and little N.

S.

 

[QMuse]

As far as I'm concerned, a SINAD of 60dB is good enough, provided it's mostly D and little N.

S.

IIRC as far as you're concerned the amp should also survive screwdriver test.

 

[maverickronin]

Who is Hans?

Hans was a horse.

 

[A800]

Yes. Santa Claus is real if you imagine it so.

No, he isn't.
Also there are no measurements.

 

[Pjetrof]

What about Marantz 7025. Brand new under 1000?

 

[balletboy]

What about Marantz 7025. Brand new under 1000?

I think it is related to this one which apparently isn’t very good.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...iew-and-measurements-of-onkyo-m-282-amp.6165/
plus, you will still need a streamer.

 

[Pjetrof]

Ok even its not audible that it measure not so good. But indeed we are talking best choice budget.
yamaha r n803d.
that one got everything even room correction.
also 100 watt. So this amplifier in my room with my speakers will have inaudible differences with benchmark ahb2 and dac3 ?

 

[Willem]

The difference will be very small at most, and the room eq will be a serious advantage. The R N 803 d is closely related to the Yamaha AS701/801 and those have measured extremely well.