Amplifier sound

[delta76]

This is getting heated! FWIW, in my limited experience, matching speakers to rooms and positioning them in the room makes the biggest sound difference, and I put effort into this, but I have also come across one or two apparently fine-measuring or highly-regarded amps that didn't play well with certain speakers. All subjective impressions when 'trying each other's gear' with friends though, and I can't recall the exact kit - but like with cars, you tend to turn up the volume when trying kit! Maybe this is all a thing of the past with amps, but some didn't always respond well (usually at volume!) to some loads, maybe where 'scalar' impedance (R) can dip a bit low or the speaker's reactance causes odd effects. It did happen. These days I'm using Hypex on my main system and have no complains, no matter the volume, so for me, amps (and DACs) are a solved problem - good enough is good enough. We could do with some paradigm/tech shifts in speakers though, but it's hard to imagine what, as in the end, some kind of device has to wobble air!

nah just another day at ASR. we try to point out that an "audition" with amp is pointless. some members listen and their life suddenly becomes better - no FOMO, more money to spend (on other things), and just enjoy good music. some don't and they are still trying to find "the next great amp/dac/preamp" for their setup.
Your money, your time, your decision. We only try to help with no money incentive

 

[JSmith]

No wonder hifi is dying.

The only part of the industry that is dying is the oily part of it... good riddance.

Glass of good bourbon

Now we're talkin', along with some good tunes... and no, I didn't call your Rotel lo-fi, you know that. In fact I posted data showing it's a decent amp with plenty of power. The only thing of note was distortion rising with frequency, 4W@2R;

IMD was a bit average too.


JSmith

 

[Mart68]

Thanks for all of your replies. Let me reiterate, I’m really not an audiophile. I’m just a guy looking for better sound and im trying to understand why I feel like two amps sound different.

I agree that it’s difficult to do a double-blinded comparison an audio shop.

As for the salesman, I never got the sense that he was biasing me or pushing me toward the Luxman. He late me pick the files I wanted to listen to and adjust the volume to my preference.

I don’t have a preference for class A, AB, or whatever.

You’re right. Maybe it’s just my uneducated ear. Maybe I’m wrong and they really sound the same.

If it's any help, Harbeth's official position is that, with the usual caveats, the amplifier makes no difference and their speakers will perform the same with any amp.

They even issued a challenge whereby if someone could discriminate one amp from another they'd win a top of the line set of Harbeth speakers.

Despite there being many people who are very vocal about amplifiers having 'sonic signatures' not a single person accepted the challenge.

 

[Mart68]

What happens when people discuss amplifier sound:

 

[delta76]

What happens when people discuss amplifier sound:

samething with DAC, Preamp, and even cables. If you think you hear the differences...

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Another day at the office for ASR!
I wonder if there can be any realistic statistics on the longevity of various amplifiers, for instance?
I know my Platinums will last forever, as I rarely turn them on!

 

[Jim Taylor]

Trust your ears

Beat (acoustics) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Constant spectrum melody - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Shepard tone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Illusory discontinuity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Illusory continuity of tones - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The purpose of this list is simple. It shows that the "ears" are very unreliable. They can very easily be deceived. Note that many of the illusions cited are perceived differently by some people compared to other people. This adds to the unreliability of transferring subjective information from one person to another.

One may hope that a single person has hearing that does not change, and therefore the differences in illusion between two or more people can be discounted. But that is not true. Our hearing can change due to the most ephemeral of causes, one largely ignored by most people:

How Weather Affects Your Ears and Hearing | Chosgo Hearing

Explore how weather conditions like cold, humidity, and pressure changes can impact your ears and hearing. Learn tips to protect your hearing health in any season.

chosgohearing.com

Conclusion? You can't trust your ears.

 

[pinger]

We just didn’t like the sound, irrespective of volume level.

You keep missing the point. You didnt do a valid double blind test. You are going off your memory which doesnt work. You would have to switch back and forth within a few seconds and not know which amp was in service. Ask yourself this: If amps really did have a proveable different sound why havent manufacturers included these tests in their ads?

 

[peng]

Maybe what sounds right to one person, sounds a bit different to another? People have different hearing, not to mention different speakers and rooms which interact differently.

Logically speaking that seems like a poor way (the trust your ears thing) to make choices, for one thing if that's the case, one would have to audition many amps, in this case from his BlueSound amp to Luxman to xyz....to infinity.. lol. Not perfect, but I would suggest he trust verifiable specs more, much more so than just "trust his ears", there are just too many reasons why it is not that simple to trust the ears, a quick Google search, AI or not will yield tons of answers to the question about why.

 

[Jim Taylor]

Really can’t be bothered arguing anymore,

Pardon me, but we're not arguing. We're discussing. There's a difference.

Allow me to ask you this: do you believe that long-held and cherished beliefs that are demonstrably incorrect should be given the same consideration as beliefs that are proven and demonstrably correct?

There are what seems to be many people on the web who think that the Moon landing was faked, that Nibiru exists. that so-called "alternative" medicines are superior to mainstream medical practices and that the Earth is flat. Those things are demonstrably incorrect. (One of them is potentially lethal. It killed Steve Jobs.) But as ridiculous as they are, the people holding to those beliefs have websites where they can congregate, discuss, reinforce each others beliefs and pat each other on the back.

I view that as freedom of speech. I would hope that any reasonable person would see the unsupportable nature of the claims, and reject them as ridiculous. But those adherents have the right (or freedom) to congregate as they please and discuss their beliefs, even though they are demonstrably incorrect.

Therefore, you have the freedom to believe as you wish, even though the belief might be unsupportable by data. Just don't get your panties in a bunch because the members here do not agree with you.

 

[VanHeGen]

Back to the OP experience ;-) I must have missed it, but you said that you listen to Spotify through your current amp, right?
But the Luxman (or Sugden) does not support streaming (as far as I know), so what was the music player used when you listened to those amps? Did they play Spotify through some high-end streamer connected to those amps? And if so, was it Spotify (almost) lossless all the time, for all amps?

Another question, if you use Dirac, was that switched on in your amp when you were in the shop? If so, it probably was not optimized for that room. Did the streamers used in the shop (if that was the case) have room correction switched on? If, so, they could have been optimized for the room.

Just my 2 cents

 

[rwertz]

Back to the OP experience ;-) I must have missed it, but you said that you listen to Spotify through your current amp, right?
But the Luxman (or Sugden) does not support streaming (as far as I know), so what was the music player used when you listened to those amps? Did they play Spotify through some high-end streamer connected to those amps? And if so, was it Spotify (almost) lossless all the time, for all amps?

Another question, if you use Dirac, was that switched on in your amp when you were in the shop? If so, it probably was not optimized for that room. Did the streamers used in the shop (if that was the case) have room correction switched on? If, so, they could have been optimized for the room.

Just my 2 cents

I believe the Bluesound amp is Dirac-ready, but I’d have to purchase Dirac, which I have not.

You may be correct about the DAC. The Bluesound has an onboard DAC, but I don’t believe the Luxman does and you can’t stream directly to the Luxman. I had to stream to an Eversolo (not sure which model) to listen to it. The files were lossless via Spotify.

 

[voodooless]

You may be correct about the DAC. The Bluesound has an onboard DAC, but I don’t believe the Luxman does and you can’t stream directly to the Luxman. I had to stream to an Eversolo (not sure which model) to listen to it. The files were lossless via Spotify.

DACs are also a solved problem, have been for at least 2 decades by now. Unless some sound processing was active, they would sound identical.

 

[voodooless]

I believe the Bluesound amp is Dirac-ready, but I’d have to purchase Dirac, which I have not.

It's a shame that Dirac does not offer trials for hardware devices

 

[Ruediger]

So easy to let the $7k Luxman shine in the store. A little volume, maybe the bass/treble knobs from 12 to 2..

What else was the salesman supposed to do? Send him home without new desires? Not make the bring-from-home amp look weak?

I wouldn't even call it pure manipulation. What do we do naturally with nice, beefy equipment? Turn it up of course.

 

[Gorgonzola]

Thanks for all of your replies. Let me reiterate, I’m really not an audiophile. I’m just a guy looking for better sound and im trying to understand why I feel like two amps sound different.

I agree that it’s difficult to do a double-blinded comparison an audio shop.

As for the salesman, I never got the sense that he was biasing me or pushing me toward the Luxman. He late me pick the files I wanted to listen to and adjust the volume to my preference.

I don’t have a preference for class A, AB, or whatever.

You’re right. Maybe it’s just my uneducated ear. Maybe I’m wrong and they really sound the same.

There a plenty of folks hear at ASR who would have you believe that ALL AMP SOUND THE SAME , given they are operating within their specification parameters, at the same volume, and with non-exotic speakers.

But they don't. For instance there are lots of wretched tube amps that sound terrible -- of course. But there are solid state amps too which sound subtly different: invariably they have significantly different distortion measurements. It isn't just SINAD, (THD+noise) but also the profile of their respective harmonic spectra. IMHO ... amps with relatively high 2nd/3rd order harmonics may sound sweet & warm; those where higher-order harmonics predominate are likely to sound harsh.

... But it is true that our non-audio perceptions will influence our impressions, so it is perfectly true that perceived differences will often vanish under blind listening conditions.

 

[Cbdb2]

Thanks. I’m well-versed in the scientific method and am a medical scientist by profession.

So you know about the placebo effect but deny it in audio?

 

[Geert]

Fixed it for you:

There a plenty of folks hear at ASR who would have you believe that ALL AMP SOUND THE SAME , given they are well designed, measure transparently, are operating within their specification parameters, at the same volume, and with non-exotic speakers.

But there are solid state amps too which sound subtly different: invariably they have significantly different distortion measurements.

Although we can't seem to find these amps where measurements shown distortion above audibility thresholds at normal operating levels.

 

[rwertz]

So you know about the placebo effect but deny it in audio?

No, I don’t deny that it may have played a role.

 

[Cbdb2]

But there are solid state amps too which sound subtly different: invariably they have significantly different distortion measurements. It isn't just SINAD, (THD+noise) but also the profile of their respective harmonic spectra.

If the THD is below audible levels the harmonics profile dosnt matter, its still inaudible. And its not hard to design an amp with this level of THD.