Amplifier sound

[Jim Taylor]

In retrospect, this was the wrong forum in which to ask the kind of question I had asked.

This is never the wrong forum to ask questions. Sometimes we will need to help you in re-framing the question, and sometimes the answer is derived from a totally different direction than the one you had originally expected.
And sometimes the answer is "Nope" when you were hoping for a big "Yup". That's life. It happens, and it has happened to all of us at one time or another. But I suggest that you stick around, and between us, we'll find an answer to your question.

Were you expecting more than that?

 

[CD2]

Sorry you are having to deal with this! Most folks on this forum are fine, but you innocently asked a question that a few inhabitants have Very Strong Views about.

I would only suggest trying different amps and getting what you like. Sugdens *do* have a very distinct sound. If that is what you like, get one!

 

[SHB]

Hi, I'm a newbie and really don't know a lot about audio, but I do love to listen to music and have read a lot of discussion here regarding choices of …

Amps are not bricks. Their behavior changes due to the impedance characteristics of the speaker they’re driving. Different amp designs and topologies will behave differently with a certain pair of speakers.

It’s not huge, but it can be audible. This is primarily due to the crossovers in passive speakers. Amps will have different frequency responses with different speakers. Some designs are load invariant, but that’s not the majority.

If you were to take two drastically different amp designs that have comparable specs and A/B test them driving a single, full-range driver, it’s doubtful you’d hear a difference.

Bottom line: get the best built amp with the best warranty, most power and lowest distortion & noise for the lowest price you can find.

Today, modern HiFi electronics generally have no audible sound humans can hear.

Your speakers and room are much more important.

 

[voodooless]

Thanks. I’m well-versed in the scientific method and am a medical scientist by profession. I get it.

Clearly you don’t.

In retrospect, this was the wrong forum in which to ask the kind of question I had asked.

Why? Because you didn’t get the answer you like to hear? Because you said you had uneducated ears, and people told you that isn’t the case?

Compare it to this: someone comes to you with a medical question, you explain it in great detail, and then the person says: “nah, I’ll just go next door and ask the Homeopathist”

Just remember: we’re not the ones trying to get you to buy an expensive product. And yes, the communication style can be a bit direct at times. It’s nothing personal and you’ll quickly get used to it.

 

[Paul7777x]

Thanks. I’m well-versed in the scientific method and am a medical scientist by profession. I get it. In retrospect, this was the wrong forum in which to ask the kind of question I had asked.

That last statement makes no sense. At all.

 

[Johnkeizer]

Trust your ears, you are the person that is going to live with the amp.

 

[solderdude]

Hi, I'm a newbie and really don't know a lot about audio, but I do love to listen to music and have read a lot of discussion here regarding choices of amplifiers.

Anyway, I currently have a pair of Harbeth C7ES-XD's and a Bluesound Powernode Edge streaming Spotify.

I was interested in looking at other amplifiers and I took my little amp to a local hifi store to listen to it on the same pair of Harbeths versus other amps.

When I listened to my Bluesound amp I thought it sounded good, but I when listened to the same speakers with a Luxman 505Z, I thought it sounded much, much better.

Why is this?

[edited]

1. Could be that the Harbeth which has an impedance that drops down to 5.6ohm at certain frequencies is not the best load for the streamer which is only specified for 8ohm.
2. Could be that in the shop you were actually listening louder than you thought and peaks were reaching 40W and given that the Luxman can reach 100W that one may not have been clipping. (86dB/V is not very high sensitivity but also not alarmingly low)
3. Could be that the Bluesound amp (class-D) has treble peaking and the Luxman did not (would result in different 'sharpness')
4. Could be that the impressive looks of Luxman sets your mind (gives you a good feel)

This is the thing. It could be for many reasons why you perceived a difference.
Since you are a medical guy I don't need to tell you how a mindset can change perception of pain, taste, sight and hearing.

In the end... IF you prefer the Luxman and it is in the ballpark of what you want to spend go for it... listen to some other amps as well.

Now .... we here can't explain what you perceived and why.
What 'we' know is that some amplifiers under complex loads (speakers) possibly can sound audibly different.

What 'we' also know is that when 2 amplifiers that are used well below the limits of the least performing amp and those amps have been tested under complex loads (speaker) to have a 'flat' response withing the audible band (and just above/below) in a blind level matched and statistically valid way can NOT be told apart by even the best 'listeners'.

Alas this last circumstance was not present.
'We' don't know why and can't give an explanation as to the how and why.
The most likely one is 'perception'.

Why does an AB amp sound different from a class D amp?

(in general)
Could be so for a number of reasons (PFFB design or not, output power)
All 'we' know is that not all class D nor class AB designs perform equally well.
There are poor class AB and class D amps and there are excellent class AB and D designs.

Are differences in the sound of amplifiers more due to preamplification than than to the amplifier itself (I think I read this somewhere)?

No... could be level differences, could be processing being done, could be filter settings of a DAC in use, could be all kinds of things including psychological.

Why would a class D amp like my Bluesound, which apparently tests very well, not sound better than the Luxman? What accounts for the intangibles that aren't measured by audio testing?

We don't know the exact circumstances.

Enjoy the music
Don't worry too much about thinking this or that is 'better sounding'.
That journey is literally never ending, will cost you a fortune over time.
Humans are 'subjective' people and all perception they have is brain dependent.

 

[voodooless]

1. Could be that the Harbeth which has an impedance that drops down to 5.6ohm at certain frequencies is not the best load for the streamer which is only specified for 8ohm.

Not the case. The little amp handles 4R just fine.

1. Could be that in the shop you were actually listening louder than you thought and peaks were reaching 40W and given that the Luxman can reach 100W that one may not have been clipping. (86dB/V is not very high sensitivity but also not alarmingly low)

Possible, but even the tiny amp can play pretty loud. But if you need a more powerful amp, there is no need some spend nearly as much as the Luxman.

1. Could be that the Bluesound amp (class-D) has treble peaking and the Luxman did not (would result in different 'sharpness')

Nope, it’s load independent.

 

[JSmith]

Trust your ears, you are the person that is going to live with the amp.

An audio analyser is much more sensitive that humans. If an amp has a "sound"... get a better one.


JSmith

 

[solderdude]

Even when you prefer that 'sound' ?

 

[Johnkeizer]

Even if you don’t like the sound of it?

 

[voodooless]

Trust your ears, you are the person that is going to live with the amp.

Generally, not for long. You’ll always look for the next “better sounding” electronics. It’s a never ending search, exactly what the industry wants.

 

[Johnkeizer]

Maybe what sounds right to one person, sounds a bit different to another? People have different hearing, not to mention different speakers and rooms which interact differently.

 

[solderdude]

Not the case. The little amp handles 4R just fine.

Possible, but even the tiny amp can play pretty loud. But if you need a more powerful amp, there is no need some spend nearly as much as the Luxman.

Nope, it’s load independent.

Good points...

Bluesound Powernode Edge Streaming Amp Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Bluesound Powernode Edge streaming DAC and amplifier review. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $649. The unit has lots the elegant look of the regular Bluesound Powernode which I just reviewed. Yes it is still white but I am not a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That said ... performance wise this isn't a high flyer but would consider it 'acoustic transparent'.

 

[solderdude]

different speakers and rooms which interact differently

True, but this has nothing to do with the connected amplifiers (in this particular case)

 

[voodooless]

Maybe what sounds right to one person, sounds a bit different to another? People have different hearing, not to mention different speakers and rooms which interact differently.

That’s not how biology works. Audibility limits are well known, and amps generally clear those with a wide margin. Which means that it’s very likely that any perceived difference isn’t because of the sound waves reaching our ears.

As to speakers and room, yes! Spend your money there, or in things like advanced EQ or room correction. These things have a vastly larger impact on sound quality.

 

[JSmith]

Even if you don’t like the sound of it?

Best not to have a baked in "sound"... or you can't change it. That is what EQ is for... one starts with a high fidelity transparent amp and then add's salt and pepper to taste. Who wants an effects box in place of an audio amp? The ideal amp is a "straight wire with gain"... i.e. hi-fi.

Anyway, most gains in audio are had via the speakers and the room, not the electronics.

Most amp "sounds" people think they hear are often not there at all, due to zero controls in place... so there is that too.

I'd rather kick back and listen to some tunes... not listening to the devices.


JSmith

 

[solderdude]

Preference and audio is a wonderful combination ensuring the 'never ending search for better sound'.

 

[delta76]

Blind test is non trivial to set up properly. It is way to easy to not level match, or knowing the amp you are using. Once you have bias it is game over.
But it is pointless to listen test amp anyway. It has been proven many times, decent amps do not sound different. People who tell you otherwise are either trying to make money off you, or have spent money themselves and trying to justify that. Save your money and time

 

[delta76]

Preference and audio is a wonderful combination ensuring the 'never ending search for better sound'.

Definitely not corporate greed for infinite growth...