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Amplifier Sonic Signatures

Mivera

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This one isn't actually an option.

Ears can't be trusted.

That's no different than saying your tastebuds can't be trusted. So any food you currently enjoy eating is all a lie. You don't really enjoy it because you read in a textbook that blue algae was the perfect all around superfood. So you decided to ram a tube down your throat and pump it directly into your stomach rather than letting your tastebuds decide what tastes good to you.
 

Cosmik

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Dimitrov

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You never truly know anything until you have first hand experience. This must be obtained by personal trial and error. Reading textbooks and believing what you read is no different than believing in Santa Class or the Tooth Fairy as a child. It's only a belief at this stage.

Me personally don't believe anything until I have personally conducted my own testing. For many layman audiophiles, they simply don't have the knowhow to conduct the necessary tests to truly know what matters. So the next best thing is to just trust your ears.

Trust is usually something that applies between people. If I say "I trust you", I usually mean: "I accept what you are saying as true, without double checking". Similarly, when I hear "trust me!", I realize that it is expected from me to accept the veracity or sincerity without double checking. In real life, this sort of trust is most important between people who deal with each other regularly and on an equal level. If some stranger asks me to trust him, I would be much more skeptical; even more so when it is a politician.

If I hear "trust your ears", it sounds strange at first, because I'm supposed to trust something that is not a person. This might be a sign of animism, where things are believed to have "a life and will of their own" (and I have long held the suspicion that many audiophiles might actually be animists, judging from the way they talk about gear). More likely it is supposed to mean: "Accept the first interpretation of what you perceive, and don't reason about it nor try to check it".

We know the subconscious can be "primed", and with it the interpretations it produces. Whoever tells us to trust our ears, trusts that our subconscious is primed in the right way according to his preference. That's a hidden agenda.

But in reality what value is there in "trusting one's ears" in this way? What is bad about checking when one has doubts? When audiophiles often say "trust your ears" that is precisely what they aren't doing. They are trusting a whole lot more than their ears. They are trusting their expectations, prior knowledge, sight etc, so clearly the idea of "trusting your ears" is a fallacy as often claimed because that's not at all what people are doing.

If people were forced to discern sound using their ears and only their ears without other variables influencing the results - ie blind listening - then that would be far closer to "trusting ears" because that's literally all you can do.
 

Mivera

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Say you go to a fine restaurant and eat something that you find is absolutely delicious. Should you trust your sense of taste? Taste is another one of the 5 senses along with hearing. And if your hearing can't be trusted, your taste certainly shouldn't' be either.
 

watchnerd

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That's no different than saying your tastebuds can't be trusted. So any food you currently enjoy eating is all a lie. You don't really enjoy it because you read in a textbook that blue algae was the perfect all around superfood. So you decided to ram a tube down your throat and pump it directly into your stomach rather than letting your tastebuds decide what tastes good to you.

It's quite a bit different, actually, because there have been experiments establishing how our cognition fools our hearing.

If you're not familiar with the issue, a worthy primer is this video from an AES workshop:

 

Mivera

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That's just another belief. Watching that video certainly won't change the personal preferences of any individual.
 

Cosmik

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Say you go to a fine restaurant and eat something that you find is absolutely delicious. Should you trust your sense of taste? Taste is another one of the 5 senses along with hearing. And if your hearing can't be trusted, your taste certainly shouldn't' be either.
I would say no, you can't trust your sense of taste. You could go back the next day, and it wouldn't taste so good. It feels as though the dish has changed, but in reality it's far more likely to be you. So many different factors at play: how hungry you were, how recently you've eaten that same dish, how good was the company? etc.
 

Mivera

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I clearly understand biases will distort personal perception. This is why I don't like to share measurement data. The majority of audiophiles actually believe products that measure impeccably sound cold and analytical. The reason why is many of the products they heard that we marketed with numbers, we designed to numbers only. This is why they feel this way. The other small group who values measurements, thinks they mean everything. So if 1 product has 0.0002% THD and another 0.0001%, the one with 0.0001% is automatically better.

So no matter which camp your in, personal biases are the real enemy. The very best thing an audio manufacturer can do is share absolutely no details at all. Only how to operate the device. This will minimize the detrimental effects of biases.
 

Cosmik

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Actually the restaurant thing may be quite a good analogy. You say "delicious", but I think that a chef probably learns to compensate for the factors I mention above, and his aim is not to make the food "delicious" to his own taste buds, merely consistent. He knows that people in the restaurant in the right mood will find the food delicious. For him, at work, it is different. If he chases deliciousness for his own taste buds at that moment, he will get nowhere.
 

watchnerd

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The majority of audiophiles actually believe products that measure impeccably sound cold and analytical.

Do you have data on that?

I have no doubt that some feel that way. But to assert the majority (>50%) feel that way would imply some statistically significant study.
 

Mivera

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I would say no, you can't trust your sense of taste. You could go back the next day, and it wouldn't taste so good. It feels as though the dish has changed, but in reality it's far more likely to be you. So many different factors at play: how hungry you were, how recently you've eaten that same dish, how good was the company? etc.

Ahh ok. Well I certainly won't be coming over to your place for dinner any time soon. You'll just blame my feedback on my mood :)
 

Mivera

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Do you have data on that?

I have no doubt that some feel that way. But to assert the majority (>50%) feel that way would imply some statistically significant study.

Yes I gathered my own data. Good example was the Weiss OP-2 opamps in my Purestream DAC. Most people were scared to try them because they measure so good. They feared that it would make the Purestream sound like a Benchmark. No BS. I'd say 80% of Purestream owners were scared to try them until I convinced them using subjective terminology.

I wish I had the PM's from Alex the MSB dealer on WBF. Wanted to audition the Purestream badly, and when I told him to go to hell all he talked about is how anything from Daniel Weiss was like listening to nails on a chalkboard.
 

Mivera

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Here's an example from the latest client who upgraded from the SITO opamps to the Weiss. He was also skeptical. His previous DAC was a highly regarded $7000 Sim Audio DAC.

IMG_1273.PNG
 

Mivera

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I'm missing something. Why is sounding like a Benchmark bad? They make quality gear, used in many professional settings.

Don't ask me. I've never heard a Benchmark. But these guys have. Many of these guys are coming from $10000+ DAC's so their standards are higher than most.
 

Mivera

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fas42

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I'm no amp designer so I would appreciate comments from those more experienced. If an amp is claimed to have "warmth" or "recessed mids" or whatever, and assuming these characteristics are limited to the amp itself, is that not deviating from the core operation of an amp?.
Yes. A good amp just "gets out of the way" - the only sonic signature should be that of the recording: two totally different systems should sound identical, in a subjective sense, on particular recordings; the characteristic of that album should dominate.

This makes it quite easy to pick the competence of an unknown setup ...
 

amirm

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There's 2 options:

1: Have the credentials to know what matters based on years of experience developing noteworthy gear in this specialized field

2: Trust your ears

Anything in between will only end with disappointing results.
The credentials you need are those that allow you to distinguish between what you think, and what you are hearing. The being rare, and not a factor in becoming #1 means your options are completely wrong.
 
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