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Amplifier power: Class A, AB vs D

A lot of really great posts, thank you. I guess when I look at amps like the ASR tested Apollon NCx500 I wonder if that makes similar wattage A/AB amps somewhat obsolete from a performance standpoint? Is spending $71,000 on a Boulder or other "artisan" amps more about pedigree and appearance? Pride of ownership? Certainly a $100 quartz watch can keep better time than a Rolex or IWC watch, so it is obviously not just about accurate time keeping.
 
A lot of really great posts, thank you. I guess when I look at amps like the ASR tested Apollon NCx500 I wonder if that makes similar wattage A/AB amps somewhat obsolete from a performance standpoint? Is spending $71,000 on a Boulder or other "artisan" amps more about pedigree and appearance? Pride of ownership? Certainly a $100 quartz watch can keep better time than a Rolex or IWC watch, so it is obviously not just about accurate time keeping.
You'll mostly find owners of such amps will firmly believe they sound better than their much cheaper brethren. Although there is no evidence to support that, they don't consider them to be just 'Rolexes'.
 
I always wondered why all the good class D pack a lot more wattage than seems necessary.
The Switch Mode Power Supplies are regulated. A classic transformer + rectifier+ capacitor is not regulated. There's no power supply change under load.
 
It has been a hobby since 1977, 48 years of dabbling I guess. Maybe that's a part of this hobby, always looking for something better.
Not better sir, just *different.*
 
Just to add that if you want great value for money, consider a quality second hand A/B. Particularly if you want decent power. People with lots of money are selling them off to buy Class D, with marginally better, and often inaudible SINAD improvements. If you want big power, look at the pro audio options. There's some great bargains to be had if you are on a budget and don't mind second hand.
I won't be "upgrading" to Class D, as I won't hear the difference and I prioritise value and reliability personally. Put your money into speakers and sorting your room.
With DSP, DACs and amps are pretty much a done deal. Amps just need decent, clean power. And not necessarily Class D.
 
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Over the years, there's always been a theme running through this hobby of continuous 'upgrades', continuous improvements. That was perfectly valid in the 1950s and '60s, when amplifier, loudspeakers and sources were very imperfect, and unless already at the 'millionaire' level, there was always something both objectively and subjectively better, at a higher price. Whether more power, lower distortion, lower rumble, more extended bass, cleaner treble or whatever.

However, all that pretty much ended by the 1970s, when amplifiers and turntables were sonically as good as they could get, only loudspeakers remained to be significantly improved. That too ended pretty much by the 1980s, when the advent of CD improved the source to well beyond audibility and even loudspeakers became excellent, as witnessed by the KEF 104.2, 107, B&W 801 and many more at that time.

Since then, it's been substantially a marketing exercise rather than a technical one. More facilities, more convenience, higher power, unnecessarily lower noise and distortion, such that today's SOTA won't necessarily sound better than a 1980s SOTA, but may go a LOT louder and will certainly cost a LOT more, taking inflation into account.

What has changed is that there's a lot of completely transparent equipment now available at what is considered budget priced that performs as well or in many cases better than the flagship stuff, but lacks the kudos and bragging rights of the expensive stuff.

S.
 
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I'd also flag up Class D's superior efficiency as part hype. There was a thread a while back which showed that it's only really superior at high output levels. Idle and normal use : little different to A/B.
And, I'd suggest there's definitely reliability issues to consider.

Saying that, if you have the budget for one of the better Class Ds, go for it. They can be very good obviously.
 
I'd also flag up Class D's superior efficiency as part hype. There was a thread a while back which showed that it's only really superior at high output levels. Idle and normal use : little different to A/B.
Not true. See below.

 
What you posted doesn't actually tell me much tbh.

I think that you will find that idle consumption and usage at normal levels really isn't much different between Class A/B and D. It is mostly power supply related.

Also, if I remember correctly, Restorer John was raising some very valid points, questioning both the claimed efficiency, and also the reliability of some Class D.
Still valid issues imho. YMMV.

All this being said, if someone gave me £1.5k to buy a new amplifier, I'd be buying something Class D.
Just don't think I'd be spending that kind of money on one, if it was my own. Lol.
 
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I did replace a 45w rated stereo tube amp in one setup (then passive) with 2 75w rated stereo class D amps and dsp, for the same end perceived volume. The math behind it i don't know that much detail, but that is reality in my case and most cases. The sound is much cleaner (what i wanted with this setup), but i need a lot more amp power to get there. The reason is that the tube amp can give more (peak) watt than rated, but not clean. But as the distortion is mainly harmonic, we don't mind (mostly). If you push a class D amp that hard, it start sagging (psu can't follow) or distorting in a very nasty disharmonic way.

The tube amp is now used in another setup, where colouration is wanted. Speakers in my case are all custom diy, as that is one of my hobbies.
 
I always wondered why all the good class D pack a lot more wattage than seems necessary.
They don't. The nature of the test parameters haas changed, that is if (and only if) one came of age in this hobby in the era of "FTC '74". Today's 200 watt amplifier, in most cases, is the 35 watt amplifier of the mid 1970s.
 
Plenty of class A amps have no audible distortion, not even close. I'd question 'much higher general noise' too.

I can put the pre on max volume and hear no hiss from the speaker. The measurements back that up too.

No doubt there is some noisy, distorting junk out there in all amp classes, but why would anyone buy them?
Those Prima Luna tube amps thst Erin tested. Interesting how many audiophools love those.
 
Those Prima Luna tube amps thst Erin tested. Interesting how many audiophools love those.
It's because in their subclass, coloured tube amps, they do a lot right and (at least originally) were not that expensive. I got one of the 1st series (bought very cheap over a decade ago), and it sounds good and is very reliable. But it has a coloured sound and is objectivly quiet noisy compared to modern class AB or D amps. It's not ASR approved, but it sound right to my ears in the right setup. It's a class AB1 tube amp btw (all models are).

The actual prices are way higher than what they were sold for when i bought one (and i got a big discount actually on that cheaper price). Too high for me to buy one now. And if you want a clean neutral sound, this is not the amp you want. But it's one of the few coloured devices that stayed over the years, while many passed trough and were sold again.
 
Look at resale market for class D amp vs mark levinson , pass lab , krell, Parasound, boulder amps…. That gives a clue .

I owned purifi class D, ahb2, krell ksa, levinson 333 and 536s and tested Macintosh , pass lab. Each has its benefits and strengths

One thing that class D always lack is the bass slam like amps with high current quick transient power supply (massive transformer with over 150k uF capacitors) and lacks the refined airy treble from amps with high end transistors that has less grainy treble sounds.
 
Look at resale market for class D amp vs mark levinson , pass lab , krell, Parasound, boulder amps…. That gives a clue .

I owned purifi class D, ahb2, krell ksa, levinson 333 and 536s and tested Macintosh , pass lab. Each has its benefits and strengths

One thing that class D always lack is the bass slam like amps with high current quick transient power supply (massive transformer with over 150k uF capacitors) and lacks the refined airy treble from amps with high end transistors that has less grainy treble sounds.
Complete nonsense.
Keith
 
I have owned a lot of powerful amps: Krell, McCormack, Aragon, Bryston, etc. Some weighed close to 100 lbs. Can a lightweight Class D amplifier with the same wattage rating drive a speaker just as well as a behemoth Class A or AB amp? Or is there something about current, capacitor reserve, etc. that the class D amps cannot match? My background is not in electronics so it is hard to wrap my head around a 12 lb class D amp being as powerful as a boat anchor in a rack. If you can get a very powerful lightweight class D amp with incredible specs for $1,200 why would you buy a really heavy class A/B amp with specs that are not as good, for multitudes more money?
Think nuclear.
One ton of TNT is equal to one ton of TNT, and one kilogram of Uranium 235 is equal to - how many (k)tons of TNT? :)
 
One thing that class D always lack is the bass slam like amps with high current quick transient power supply (massive transformer with over 150k uF capacitors) and lacks the refined airy treble from amps with high end transistors that has less grainy treble sounds.
That's simply not true but OK.
 
Look at resale market for class D amp vs mark levinson , pass lab , krell, Parasound, boulder amps…. That gives a clue .

I owned purifi class D, ahb2, krell ksa, levinson 333 and 536s and tested Macintosh , pass lab. Each has its benefits and strengths

One thing that class D always lack is the bass slam like amps with high current quick transient power supply (massive transformer with over 150k uF capacitors) and lacks the refined airy treble from amps with high end transistors that has less grainy treble sounds.
Nope, it's just simply about power.
Any two power - comparable amps ( and I mean all metrics about it) with thermals at check , no matter the class, can give the slam you like.
 
Look at resale market for class D amp vs mark levinson , pass lab , krell, Parasound, boulder amps…. That gives a clue .
LOL, look at the cost of entry?
I get the weekly AudioMart flyer and it just amazes me how much $ loss the high end buyers are willing to accept in the constant upgrade path they follow.
Six figure amps and speakers drop to half MSRP or more after a year of so. Good deals for used buyers but the losses unblinkingly accepted staggers a old lower midlevel blue collar guy like me.
 
I tried and ultimately failed to run an Eversolo AMP F10 to Boxem ‘Arthur’ Purifi Eigentakt recently, class A/B versus Class-D, out of the box only one channel on the Eversolo worked, after two months it returned with both channels but no VU meters, hot heavy, noisy and in this case unreliable against compact, silent and powerful no comparison.
I can’t see any advantage to those old A/B amps and many disadvantages.
Keith
 
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