Amplifier for Focal Kanta Nº2

[polmuaddib]

Megatest speaker cables - real measurements, samples and blind test!

The guy is changing cables right in front of the reviewers and they are discussing after every listening!
Please, this is not blind, let alone double blind test.
Sorry, but this is worthless and not a proof in any way that speaker cables matter.
Got more?

My advice is, since you are already a believer in subjective hifi dogmas, to try something different. Try to imagine you are an objectivist and reasearch, with open mind, that cables don't matter. Learn more how double tests are performed and scientific method. Make it an excercise. See how much relevant data you obtain in either scenario.
Maybe you change your mind, maybe not. But if you take it seriously, you might learn something.

Happy holidays!

 

[Worth Davis]

Hello guys, so i am looking for a new amplifier for my Focal Kanta Nº2's and would really appreciate some suggestions.

I tried a Class D amp with HypeX Ncore modules (TEAC AP-701) but they definitely didn't work with the Kanta's. They work really great with sonus faber speakers for example, but with the Kanta's the sound is very forward and thin, clearly lacking in the mids/bass and not enjoyable at all for the type of music i listen to (mostly rock).
I also have the naim uniti nova, which pairs better with the Kanta's, but looking for a bigger soundstage and a less forward sound and also a solution that i can use an external streamer/dac, which the nova doesn't allow.

My budget is about 6K Euros. I have a TEAC UD-701N preamp/dac/streamer, so i do not need a all in one. It can be either an integrated, or a poweramp. I also do not mind buying used, quite the opposite really, if i can get a better value for money.

Really appreciate some suggestions

This thread looks old, but I would recommend changing your placement and seating around before worrying about an amp or cables being a "match for speakers". The difference a few feet or toe in can make is profound and measurable.

Not enough bass? move towards wall or corner
Too shrill? toe out or in
Hear the room too much? bring speakers closer together

Focals have always been a little bright to me, so I would toe them out as a starter. (not facing you at your seat, more straight out or even out from there)

I like the the rule of thirds for setup if you can - seat at 1/3 or 2/3 depth of room - equilateral triangle for speakers and set

I own many focal products, they are high quality - just need to putz around with your room and placement

 

[Qba3d]

This thread looks old, but I would recommend changing your placement and seating around before worrying about an amp or cables being a "match for speakers". The difference a few feet or toe in can make is profound and measurable.

Not enough bass? move towards wall or corner
Too shrill? toe out or in
Hear the room too much? bring speakers closer together

Focals have always been a little bright to me, so I would toe them out as a starter. (not facing you at your seat, more straight out or even out from there)

I like the the rule of thirds for setup if you can - seat at 1/3 or 2/3 depth of room - equilateral triangle for speakers and set

I own many focal products, they are high quality - just need to putz around with your room and placement

Totally agree with that. Thank You. Since the test ( over year a go), I already changed the amp to a warmer sounding ( can I say that here? ) amp.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Totally agree with that. Thank You. Since the test ( over year a go), I already changed the amp to a warmer sounding ( can I say that here? ) amp.

Sure, you can say that here. Absolutely, you can say that here. No one can stop you from saying that here, nor will they even try.

Of course it's quite silly to say that, here or anywhere else, but that's another matter entirely.

Jim

 

[AdamG]

Guys it’s really lovely how you react in protest to my words but it was proven already that cables do change sound- in numbers-

Please feel free to start a new thread to continue this conversation oh and bring that “Proven evidence/science data with you. Cables of all sorts have been tested by our Host Amir and found to do nothing to the sound. You can believe anything you like but you are going to need a lot more than opinions and feelings to prove that cables can change the sound. Scientific equipment can measure to a far greater degree and extent than the human ear and to date no one ever has provided any hard evidence that supports this claim.

 

[OCA]

I am fully aware of the speaker cable snake oil market but you seem to be expressing strong criticism towards someone with a differing opinion. It's worth considering that using thin and long speaker wires with passive speakers of low sensitivity can indeed result in noticeable differences in sound. Opting for a thick and short speaker cable is likely to yield better performance, and those with limited hearing abilities can also objectively measure that.

It might be helpful for everyone to familiarize themselves with the Gabor/Fourier limit before asserting that every aspect in audio can be precisely measured. On a related note, Amir himself acknowledges that, like any true scientific mind, he is occasionally wrong about 5% of the time.

It's essential to maintain a scientific perspective and open-minded approach to discussions IMO.

 

[GXAlan]

I am not discussing that advice as it was not the point of my opinion. I agree with You on that statement.

Great. I understand.

What I mentioned, and I will say again, is that I did hear a difference in the sound when I changed cables with Nova/Kanta 2, just like the person stated a few posts above.

Looking at

Testergebnisse

www.stereo.de

the damping factor is

63Hz/1kHz/14kHz:

20/14/16

whereas something beefy like this has a much higher damping factor

Testergebnisse

www.stereo.de

63Hz/1kHz/14kHz:

472/460/378

Those numbers from the Nova are low enough that the addition of a cable might indeed influence the sound.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I am fully aware of the speaker cable snake oil market but you seem to be expressing strong criticism towards someone with a differing opinion.

If you are truly aware of the "speaker cable snake oil market", then you are aware that it merits strong criticism. Without specific quantification, the OP can get the idea, as I said before, that the sound of the Kanta can be changed by simply changing speaker cables ... or alternately, amplifiers.

That can be very expensive (and very frustrating) misinformation!

(The "specific quantification" that I mention is measurements (in the case of cables) or tests and measurements (in the case of amplifiers) to identify faulty designs*, some of which are deliberately faulty. Hucksters and scam artists are constantly on the hunt for gullible victims. Tests and measurements can prevent them getting deceived.)

Jim

* https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...imson-275-review-tube-amp.29971/#post-1050452

 

[OCA]

the sound of the Kanta can be changed by simply changing speaker cables ... or alternately, amplifiers.

It can be changed audibly by changing cables for reasons I explained above. If you plug the Kanta 2s to an amp which cannot truly cope with high low impedance loads (they can go down to 2.3ohms at around 100Hz), you will have distortion at higher volumes. Also, a lot of fancy amp brands intentionally embed a sound colour to their products. These are easily audible and measurable. As per measurement accuracies, I am sure you're reading before replying but you must have missed the Gabor limit theorem above.

 

[Beave]

It can be changed audibly by changing cables for reasons I explained above. If you plug the Kanta 2s to an amp which cannot truly cope with high impedance loads (they can go down to 2.3ohms at around 100Hz), you will have distortion at higher volumes. Also, a lot of fancy amp brands intentionally embed a sound colour to their products. These are easily audible and measurable. As per measurement accuracies, I am sure you're reading before replying but you must have missed the Gabor limit theorem above.

I believe you meant low impedance loads, not high impedance loads?

Please explain how the Gabor limit theorem applies to audio measurements.

 

[amirm]

Broad binary statements that make no difference don’t match my experience. Obviously, that is not enough to prove anything, I agree with that though my reaction was and is to a broad binary statement that cables make no difference to any speaker. We just proved that it could not always be the case.

One moment, please...

There is no proof of anything there. Just because a test is "blind" it doesn't mean it is correct. You ask me to predict if a coin flip will be heads or tails. I say head and it lands on the head. Can I claim I can foretell which way a coin flips? I hope we agree not.

For this type of test, you absolutely want to start with the "binary" question of whether there is any difference is there at all before attempting to quantify it. Such a test requires repeating it enough times to rule out chance per above coin flip. Indeed, computation of its statistics are exactly the same. I have a tutorial on this:

What you are doing instead is just asking people to tell what difference they are hearing, already handing them a bias that there is a difference. So they go and opine there is. Most of us put in that situation will read differences into the test even if you changed nothing! I will repeat: those outcomes can be gotten by just telling people something has changed even if it has not. The proper protocol in the video explains how we avoid this pitfall.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Also, a lot of fancy amp brands intentionally embed a sound colour to their products.

This is true, especially with tube products. As I said above, hucksters are always on the hunt for gullible victims. All the more reason for tests and measurements.

Jim

 

[amirm]

BTW, if you want to stay with difference rating, you could repeat that and do statistical analysis to see if the change in cables had probative (p < 0.05).

 

[amirm]

Totally agree with that. Thank You. Since the test ( over year a go), I already changed the amp to a warmer sounding ( can I say that here? ) amp.

You can say it but unless it is a tube amp with high output impedance, we just ignore it and move on.

 

[OCA]

I believe you meant low impedance loads, not high impedance loads?

Please explain how the Gabor limit theorem applies to audio measurements.

Simply put, what is measured is an impulse divided into equally spaced samples in time. Converting that signal in the time domain to frequency domain and extracting frequency and phase response information from that impulse requires a discrete transform which is basically matching multiple sine waves to that signal. Gabor uncertainty principle (similar to Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics) proves that the product of the uncertainties in frequency and time must exceed a fixed constant, and the accuracy with which one of them can be measured limits the best possible accuracy with which the other can be measured. In other words, one cannot simultaneously specify a sound’s exact frequency and time of occurrence. The pitch of a very brief sound is undeterminable.

 

[MarkS]

a lot of fancy amp brands intentionally embed a sound colour to their products.

Can you cite an example? And in particular, any solid-state examples?

 

[OCA]

Can you cite an example? And in particular, any solid-state examples?

I can name Naim, McIntosh and Hegel from personal experience. I can also name Rotel Michi as neutral meaning no sound color added. Have you heard of Bob Carver's challenge? The guy made a lot of impact claiming to be able to mimic the sound of any high-end amp back in the 70s.

Focal speakers also intentionally add a boost to certain mid frequencies as they believe (and are probably right) this helps their speakers sell better.

 

[Bow_Wazoo]

...I tried a Class D amp with HypeX Ncore modules (TEAC AP-701) but they definitely didn't work with the Kanta's. They work really great with sonus faber speakers for example, but with the Kanta's the sound is very forward and thin, clearly lacking in the mids/bass and not enjoyable at all for the type of music i listen to (mostly rock)...

If your speakers don't sound well, I would rather focus on a FR correction, which brings a factor of X 100 more,
than replacing the HyperX...

 

[Beave]

Simply put, what is measured is an impulse divided into equally spaced samples in time. Converting that signal in the time domain to frequency domain and extracting frequency and phase response information from that impulse requires a discrete transform which is basically matching multiple sine waves to that signal. Gabor uncertainty principle (similar to Heisenberg uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics) proves that the product of the uncertainties in frequency and time must exceed a fixed constant, and the accuracy with which one of them can be measured limits the best possible accuracy with which the other can be measured. In other words, one cannot simultaneously specify a sound’s exact frequency and time of occurrence. The pitch of a very brief sound is undeterminable.

What do you mean by "what is measured is an impulse divided into equally spaced samples in time?" Measured when? By what? An how can an impulse have samples spaced in time when it's infinitely short in duration? And are you talking analog or digital here?

I'm an EE who worked in audio signal processing. I don't understand what you wrote. Is there a language barrier here or did you throw out a bunch of terms in hopes of confusing me and scaring me away?

None of what you wrote is relevant to audio testing.

 

[OCA]

hopes of confusing me and scaring me away

And I've an aeronautical engineering degree and I used to fill sand to speaker stands. What's the relevance? You might have more important issues than audio fidelity if these are the emotions you expect to extract from forum discussions.