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Amplifier Distortion: Threshold of Hearing

Henryk

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I'm looking at amirm's review of the 3e A7 and he says that it's distortion (of 102) is "below the threshold of hearing".
Can anyone tell me what is the approximate cutoff for audible amplifier distortion is in terms of a SINAD value?

From what I understand - for DAC's - 120 is theoretically ideal and "perfect".
Not sure how that translates to amplifiers though.
I searched but couldn't find an answer...
 
I'm looking at amirm's review of the 3e A7 and he says that it's distortion (of 102) is "below the threshold of hearing".
Can anyone tell me what is the approximate cutoff for audible amplifier distortion is in terms of a SINAD value?

From what I understand - for DAC's - 120 is theoretically ideal and "perfect".
Not sure how that translates to amplifiers though.
I searched but couldn't find an answer...
Don't get SINAD, noise and distortion mixed up. A DAC should be able to generate analogue from digital with low noise and distortion.

As soon as you are dealing with gain, especially for low signals (MC phono), or high current/power, things become trickier.

You can test for yourself:
 

I have been using these for my surrounds for 15 years and no complaints. In fact, could not tell the difference when tried 100dB+ SINAD amps. But I definitively don't suffer from the golden ear syndrome.
 
Don't get SINAD, noise and distortion mixed up. A DAC should be able to generate analogue from digital with low noise and distortion.

As soon as you are dealing with gain, especially for low signals (MC phono), or high current/power, things become trickier.

You can test for yourself:

...but in this review, amrim specifically says "...with distortion below the threshold of hearing" and then points to a SINAD chart.
If SINAD isn't related to distortion he wouldn't say that, right?
 

I have been using these for my surrounds for 15 years and no complaints. In fact, could not tell the difference when tried 100dB+ SINAD amps. But I definitively don't suffer from the golden ear syndrome.

At what approximate SINAD level have you been able to tell the difference?
 
amirm's review of the 3e A7
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/3e-audio-a7-a7-mono-amplifier-review.62176/
3e audio 3eaudio a7 class D stereo audio amplifier balanced measurements.png


Amir is looking at the FFT spectrum, which shows individual distortion spikes lower than -115dB. Noise is much higher, which is which SINAD is only 102. Look up "FFT gain" to understand the visual representation.

You will never ever hear distortion that low. Actual thresholds are hard to know because they are dynamic and depend on a lot of things. It's generally a non-issue in real use unless you screw up gain staging.
 
...but in this review, amrim specifically says "...with distortion below the threshold of hearing" and then points to a SINAD chart.
If SINAD isn't related to distortion he wouldn't say that, right?
SINAD is a ratio of the signal level to the level of noise and distortion expressed in dB. In this case, distortion barely contributes and noise dominates.
 
At what approximate SINAD level have you been able to tell the difference?
Have not had such gear since the early childhood. My first "Hi-Fi" was a Polish turntable that probably had SINAD of 20dB at best - mostly distortion out of the 4W output. On Kippel test, most people can't pass 60dB mark.

Not that I am advocating low SINAD, actually quite the opposite. 80dB SINAD might have been ok 15 years ago, but not now. Does not mean that such gear is wasted now though - looks great and sounds great still.
 
SINAD is a ratio of the signal level to the level of noise and distortion expressed in dB. In this case, distortion barely contributes and noise dominates.

Okay, I see where you're getting the distortion values/data from.
But where do I look to see the noise (which is substantial)


For an example of just how complicated things get when adding in human perceptual limits.

Thanks for that link - so interesting!

This is an example of how SINAD differs based on output level.

View attachment 468350

The same, but over frequency.

View attachment 468351

SINAD is a highly changeable figure. Make sure you don't think of amps or anything else in terms of single number. Think in curves.

So true... I've been thinking about SINAD as a static number.
Thanks for opening my eyes, now I'll look at it more comprehensively.
 
Have not had such gear since the early childhood. My first "Hi-Fi" was a Polish turntable that probably had SINAD of 20dB at best - mostly distortion out of the 4W output. On Kippel test, most people can't pass 60dB mark.

Not that I am advocating low SINAD, actually quite the opposite. 80dB SINAD might have been ok 15 years ago, but not now. Does not mean that such gear is wasted now though - looks great and sounds great still.

Valid point;
It's nice to know that there's no reason to swap out gear to chase a level of distortion/noise that you can't even hear anyways!
 
I love the looks of these older Rotels, They're so reminiscent of the old Mark Levinson and Krell lines, only smaller.
Back in the days when I was still addicted to the High-End publication BS, etc; I have to admit to badly lusting for one, which I could never afford. :(

no-334.jpg
 
Well, this one is a bit more elaborate and likely better, but Rotels 1070 remain the icon of style and performing even well enough to get pardon on this form. Brystons were never turning heads but they have more merit to them for sure.

 
Okay, I see where you're getting the distortion values/data from.
But where do I look to see the noise (which is substantial)
I missed this question before. The reviewer must explicitly measure and present the residual noise level or SNR. Otherwise, you have to interpret the SINAD charts and curves for rough answers.
 
I'm looking at amirm's review of the 3e A7 and he says that it's distortion (of 102) is "below the threshold of hearing".
Can anyone tell me what is the approximate cutoff for audible amplifier distortion is in terms of a SINAD value?

From what I understand - for DAC's - 120 is theoretically ideal and "perfect".
Not sure how that translates to amplifiers though.
I searched but couldn't find an answer...

IMHO there is one very important variable that is missing from such claims. You cannot "hear" the amplifier directly but instead must use a transducer of some type to do that, e.g. a loudspeaker. Loudspeakers and more specifically their drivers have a wide range of sensitivities, from 80dB/W to 110dB/W. Noise is much less of a concern when you have a low sensitivity loudspeaker like a small 2-way or whatever. On the other hand a DIY speaker using a compression driver and horn with an active crossover has the amplifier directly connected to a very high sensitivity tranducer, and in this case even small amounts of noise/hiss in the amplifier can be audible in the absence of a music signal. So for noise, what you will be using for a loudspeaker definitely has some bearing on the level that is acceptable.

As far as distortion goes, for harmonic distortion the order matters as well as its level. This is because masking is weaker for higher order distortion and the fact that humans actually "like" some low order (primarily second order) distortion to the point that some actually try to use equipment (amplifiers and preamps) that impart this sort of harmonic signature, sometimes called "euphonic distortion". But above 3rd order you want distortion products to be low. Unlike noise, these are only present when there is a music signal and so it is a matter of how anal retentive you want to be with respect to "signal purity" and how much distortion you think you can perceive. There are probably online tests for this, and each one of us probably has a different sensitivity to higher order harmonic distortion. Finally there is intermodular distortion. This is when two or more tones occuring at the same time give rise to other tones that are sums and differences of the original tones AND the new tones as well. The new tones are not harmonically related, so what you get is a mess that is not quite noise but would probably cause a loss of fidelity and clean-ness of the signal once it gets bad enough. Also, keep in mind that the frequency of the distortion product is important. 3rd order distortion produced by a 5kHz fundamental tone is not really going to be a problem because it is on the very edge of your hearing, or possibly above it if you are a bit older. So when an amplifier has a bit of a rising distortion signature at e.g. 5-10kHz that is no concern for me.

Of the distortions I mention above, the loudspeaker produces much more of them compared to DACs or amplifiers that are manufactured today. Even a cheap $150 class-D stereo amplifier likely has a much cleaner transfer function than the loudspeaker! So keep that in mind when you are scrutinizing amplifiers using these metrics.

And to put things into perspective WRT human hearing, a very quiet room is around 40dB and a very, very loud sound might be 110dB. That is so loud that exposure for more than a couple of minutes can give you some hearing damage like tinnitus. This is a range of around 70dB, from the loudest sound to the quietest roughly speaking. So when your amplifier has 90dB SINAD you are aready getting into very decent performance. Since SINAD is a composite metric of noise and distortion you need to look a little deeper into their contributions. I would take a low noise but higher distortion amplifier over the opposite, for example.
 
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IMHO there is one very important variable that is missing from such claims. You cannot "hear" the amplifier directly but instead must use a transducer of some type to do that, e.g. a loudspeaker. Loudspeakers and more specifically their drivers have a wide range of sensitivities, from 80dB/W to 110dB/W. Noise is much less of a concern when you have a low sensitivity loudspeaker like a small 2-way or whatever. On the other hand a DIY speaker using a compression driver and horn with an active crossover has the amplifier directly connected to a very high sensitivity tranducer, and in this case even small amounts of noise/hiss in the amplifier can be audible in the absence of a music signal. So for noise, what you will be using for a loudspeaker definitely has some bearing on the level that is acceptable.

As far as distortion goes, for harmonic distortion the order matters as well as its level. This is because masking is weaker for higher order distortion and the fact that humans actually "like" some low order (primarily second order) distortion to the point that some actually try to use equipment (amplifiers and preamps) that impart this sort of harmonic signature, sometimes called "euphonic distortion". But above 3rd order you want distortion products to be low. Unlike noise, these are only present when there is a music signal and so it is a matter of how anal retentive you want to be with respect to "signal purity" and how much distortion you think you can perceive. There are probably online tests for this, and each one of us probably has a different sensitivity to higher order harmonic distortion. Finally there is intermodular distortion. This is when two or more tones occuring at the same time give rise to other tones that are sums and differences of the original tones AND the new tones as well. The new tones are not harmonically related, so what you get is a mess that is not quite noise but would probably cause a loss of fidelity and clean-ness of the signal once it gets bad enough. Also, keep in mind that the frequency of the distortion product is important. 3rd order distortion produced by a 5kHz fundamental tone is not really going to be a problem because it is on the very edge of your hearing, or possibly above it if you are a bit older. So when an amplifier has a bit of a rising distortion signature at e.g. 5-10kHz that is no concern for me.

Of the distortions I mention above, the loudspeaker produces much more of them compared to DACs or amplifiers that are manufactured today. Even a cheap $150 class-D stereo amplifier likely has a much cleaner transfer function than the loudspeaker! So keep that in mind when you are scrutinizing amplifiers using these metrics.

And to put things into perspective WRT human hearing, a very quiet room is around 40dB and a very, very loud sound might be 110dB. That is so loud that exposure for more than a couple of minutes can give you some hearing damage like tinnitus. This is a range of around 70dB, from the loudest sound to the quietest roughly speaking. So when your amplifier has 90dB SINAD you are aready getting into very decent performance. Since SINAD is a composite metric of noise and distortion you need to look a little deeper into their contributions. I would take a low noise but higher distortion amplifier over the opposite, for example.

That's incredibly helpful - thanks for taking the time to explain :D
 
IMHO there is one very important variable that is missing from such claims. You cannot "hear" the amplifier directly but instead must use a transducer of some type to do that, e.g. a loudspeaker. Loudspeakers and more specifically their drivers have a wide range of sensitivities, from 80dB/W to 110dB/W. Noise is much less of a concern when you have a low sensitivity loudspeaker like a small 2-way or whatever. On the other hand a DIY speaker using a compression driver and horn with an active crossover has the amplifier directly connected to a very high sensitivity tranducer, and in this case even small amounts of noise/hiss in the amplifier can be audible in the absence of a music signal. So for noise, what you will be using for a loudspeaker definitely has some bearing on the level that is acceptable.

As far as distortion goes, for harmonic distortion the order matters as well as its level. This is because masking is weaker for higher order distortion and the fact that humans actually "like" some low order (primarily second order) distortion to the point that some actually try to use equipment (amplifiers and preamps) that impart this sort of harmonic signature, sometimes called "euphonic distortion". But above 3rd order you want distortion products to be low. Unlike noise, these are only present when there is a music signal and so it is a matter of how anal retentive you want to be with respect to "signal purity" and how much distortion you think you can perceive. There are probably online tests for this, and each one of us probably has a different sensitivity to higher order harmonic distortion. Finally there is intermodular distortion. This is when two or more tones occuring at the same time give rise to other tones that are sums and differences of the original tones AND the new tones as well. The new tones are not harmonically related, so what you get is a mess that is not quite noise but would probably cause a loss of fidelity and clean-ness of the signal once it gets bad enough. Also, keep in mind that the frequency of the distortion product is important. 3rd order distortion produced by a 5kHz fundamental tone is not really going to be a problem because it is on the very edge of your hearing, or possibly above it if you are a bit older. So when an amplifier has a bit of a rising distortion signature at e.g. 5-10kHz that is no concern for me.

Of the distortions I mention above, the loudspeaker produces much more of them compared to DACs or amplifiers that are manufactured today. Even a cheap $150 class-D stereo amplifier likely has a much cleaner transfer function than the loudspeaker! So keep that in mind when you are scrutinizing amplifiers using these metrics.

And to put things into perspective WRT human hearing, a very quiet room is around 40dB and a very, very loud sound might be 110dB. That is so loud that exposure for more than a couple of minutes can give you some hearing damage like tinnitus. This is a range of around 70dB, from the loudest sound to the quietest roughly speaking. So when your amplifier has 90dB SINAD you are already getting into very decent performance. Since SINAD is a composite metric of noise and distortion you need to look a little deeper into their contributions. I would take a low noise but higher distortion amplifier over the opposite, for example.

  • So when your amplifier has 90dB SINAD you are already getting into very decent performance. Since SINAD is a composite metric of noise and distortion you need to look a little deeper into their contributions. I would take a low noise but higher distortion amplifier over the opposite, for example.

Thank you, Yes, @charlielaub, Noise is high Masking, isn't it, more so as Gain increases.
Amplifyer noise significantly affects Amplifyer performance by degrading SNR and Masking (limiting the Contrast.... Accuracy and Detectablety) of the amplifyed Signal. This is particularly critical when amplifying very Weak Signals, as the Noise added by the Amplifyer can be as Strong or even stronger than the original Signal.
  • SNR can be considered as a good indicator for Low Noise, can't it, where SNR >100db is Good/High, >110db is High/Excellent, >120db is Excellent/Exceptional
  • For example, Signal Output=75db, SNR=120db, Noise= -45db
 
I'm looking at amirm's review of the 3e A7 and he says that it's distortion (of 102) is "below the threshold of hearing".
Can anyone tell me what is the approximate cutoff for audible amplifier distortion is in terms of a SINAD value?

From what I understand - for DAC's - 120 is theoretically ideal and "perfect".
Not sure how that translates to amplifiers though.
I searched but couldn't find an answer...
There is a huge masking effect on low level distortion if there is other audio in the harmonic range. But in general -100 to -120 dBc distorion is not easily discernable. Even 1% (-40dB) is not easy to pick out by ear, depending on the listener and speaker.
 
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