Amphion vs Genelec

[Ellebob]

I honestly don't think I can directly hear the effect of waveguide. Assuming you're not calling large studio monitors "main", you'll find many top players still rely on old NS10M, 1031, ProAc, etc. You may want to check MIX magazine or manufacture's web site to see who uses what monitors these days. I do not follow the most recent trend, but last time I researched, it seemed ATC was gaining popularity along with Amphion and Barefoot. I'm sure they are all capable mixing monitors, waveguide or not.

A simple definition of a wave guide and a horn. A horn is to direct sound and make it louder. When you direct the sound towards a given direction it will be louder, like cupping your hands around your mouth and calling for your kid to come home for dinner.

A waveguide is about matching the dispersion between two drivers at their crossover frequency, so the speaker disperses uniformly. If you don't have a waveguide a speaker may sound good directly but not to the sides. In most two may monitors it matches the tweeter's dispersion with the woofer's dispersion at their crossover frequency.

The waveguide doesn't change the direct sound much if listening in the prime spot and at close distances where you don't hear many reflections compared to the direct sound. You will notice waveguides do better when you are not in the prime listening spot or when listening further away where you the reflections in the room get mixed more with the direct sound.

 

[Guermantes]

I wasn't aware that a preference for sharp edge speakers was all that common among that many pros, although I don't work at all in the pop/rock field, and I don't frequent pro audio forums much at all, really. Which studios or engineers use flat-baffled speakers with non-rounded edges as their main monitors that you know of? And is this something that is unique to pop/rock or other genres too in your experience?

I suspect a purely practical reason for sharp-edged designs in main monitors is easier soffit mounting: https://www.genelec.com/1237a

 

[soundwave76]

I have listened to both and own the 8340s. Genelecs win hands down imo.

 

[Tovarich007]

I suspect a purely practical reason for sharp-edged designs in main monitors is easier soffit mounting: https://www.genelec.com/1237a

Absolutely, there is no other reason. Just look at nearfield monitors, you have many different shapes (square edged, rounded or sometimes more exotic shapes). Sharp edges or round edges have per se no effet on standing waves.

Waveguides, when done well (not always), are intended to control directivity and to approach constant directivity on a large frequency range, a feature typically associated with large horned monitor speakers that Genelec pioneered on direct sounding transducers and smaller speakers, with great success among the audio pro community.

And to go back to the topic : Amphion vs.Genelec, I can't understand why a colored speaker could be more suited for mixing than a neutral/flat one. This kind of assertion sounds a bit weird to my rational mind. A neutral (well, I know, absolute neutrality doesn't exist) is always preferable to a coloured one.

All other statement is bu...it, IMHO.

 

[dfuller]

I can't understand why a colored speaker could be more suited for mixing than a neutral/flat one. This kind of assertion sounds a bit weird to my rational mind.

It's often good to have a speaker that isn't particularly flat or neutral as a secondary "sanity check" set (or, do some DSP based trickery to imitate them a la Barefoot). This is particularly relevant for low end, as many systems that are common consumer end points are particularly bass-challenged (see: phone speakers, laptop speakers).

 

[Tovarich007]

It's often good to have a speaker that isn't particularly flat or neutral as a secondary "sanity check" set (or, do some DSP based trickery to imitate them a la Barefoot).

Right, in rock/pop music studios, just to check if the mix can sound good on small low quality playback systems, that's true.

But for SERIOUS recording/mixing/mastering, you need o good neutral system. In the classical music domain, I know rather well the studios of La Maison de la radio in paris (the french national broadcast and recording facilities and concert rooms, host of the Orchestre Philarmonique de Radio france and the Orchestre national de France. Their studios are among the best equipped in all Europe and their sound engineers and technicians are top guys. They use different models of Genelec, ATC, Neumann KH 310, Cabasse coax, custom large monitors with horn and TAD drivers and compressions. They had also tested B&W 800 series. But I have never, never, never seen the extremity of the nose of Amphion or other exotic hifi speakers in serious classical or acoustic jazz studios.

 

[dfuller]

But for SERIOUS recording/mixing/mastering

Let's not act as though rock and pop aren't serious, here. They have different translation requirements, but still need a good playback system to mix properly.

 

[617]

Let's not act as though rock and pop aren't serious, here. They have different translation requirements, but still need a good playback system to mix properly.

Yeah if I was mixing rock and metal I'd want some pretty serious speakers especially.

 

[stevenswall]

I personally wouldn't choose anything from the 8XX0 line. They in my experience are a little too smooth and pleasant on the top end (and a bit boomy in the bottom end) to judge mixes on accurately. You can fix this with EQ from a miniDSP or something easily enough, but I wouldn't want to run them without.

What do you mean too smooth? If smooth means no irregularities, then there is no such thing as too smooth on something aiming for fidelity, as zero frequency response, distortion, or time irregularities would only ever be as good as the real life instrument.

If smooth here is being used a different way, what measurements shows if something is too smooth? I've heard the treble is too harsh and Genelec's are too bright as well and am curious what each party means.

Every speaker seems too boomy without DSP... Thankfully Genelec has GLM, which is their in house solution for controlling the potentially boomy room effects you mention, but yes, DSP should be used in any case even if not GLM, and even if the user gets Amphion speakers.

 

[dfuller]

What do you mean too smooth? If smooth means no irregularities, then there is no such thing as too smooth on something aiming for fidelity, as zero frequency response, distortion, or time irregularities would only ever be as good as the real life instrument.

If smooth here is being used a different way, what measurements shows if something is too smooth? I've heard the treble is too harsh and Genelec's are too bright as well and am curious what each party means.

Allow me to quote myself from this thread:

You know, I don't really know. It might be something about the upper bass (like 100-200hz) region that's boosted that gives them that quality. I wish I knew what but man oh man I have never had a mix translate well off this line of speakers.

Every speaker seems too boomy without DSP... Thankfully Genelec has GLM, which is their in house solution for controlling the potentially boomy room effects you mention, but yes, DSP should be used in any case even if not GLM, and even if the user gets Amphion speakers.

This is not my experience. I've heard plenty of good analog crossover speakers sans DSP - most Focals I've heard I've liked and if anything they're sorta bass shy.

 

[stevenswall]

Looks like this nearfield model is about +/-4dB... I'm not aware of any Genelec 8000 series monitors that would pass quality control with that spec, as they seem to be +/-1dB, and if the user wants a certain curve it can be achieved with EQ. Better to EQ something that can play accurately than to get something that is inaccurate and may never be accurate even with EQ.

https://amphion.fi/create/products-pro-audio/studio-monitors/two15-nearfield-studio-monitor/

 

[stevenswall]

Allow me to quote myself from this thread:

This is not my experience. I've heard plenty of good analog crossover speakers sans DSP - most Focals I've heard I've liked and if anything they're sorta bass shy.

I've never seen a modern 8000 series Genelec boosted in the 100-200hz region, or any other region.

Yeah, speakers without much extension won't sound boomy. So long as they are affected by the room and capable of producing deep bass though, I think most any speaker can sound boomy depending on the room and placement without DSP.

I've only used a Focal Twin6 in a treated studio so I'm not sure if they would sound boomy in an untreated room. I'd want to test with the Trio that has the larger woofer though, or the SM9. I'd rather have some deep bass that isn't accurate that I can correct with DSP or cut off, than a speaker that can't produce bass.

 

[richard12511]

Let's not act as though rock and pop aren't serious, here. They have different translation requirements, but still need a good playback system to mix properly.

One could argue that pop/rock is the most serious genre, since that's where most of the money is, and where there's presumably the most to lose.

 

[YSC]

Looks like this nearfield model is about +/-4dB... I'm not aware of any Genelec 8000 series monitors that would pass quality control with that spec, as they seem to be +/-1dB, and if the user wants a certain curve it can be achieved with EQ. Better to EQ something that can play accurately than to get something that is inaccurate and may never be accurate even with EQ.

View attachment 109946
https://amphion.fi/create/products-pro-audio/studio-monitors/two15-nearfield-studio-monitor/

It seems that it’s the amphion having boosted bass

 

[Tovarich007]

Let's not act as though rock and pop aren't serious, here. They have different translation requirements, but still need a good playback system to mix properly.

I didn't mean rock/pop are not serious, I like these musical genres too (I was member of a -rather bad- amateur rock band in my teenage).

I only meant every serious recording or mastering venue, whatever the type of music, needs a good neutral system, and that's why in classical specialized studios, where neutrallity and "naturalness" of acoustic timbers are key factors, you don't find fancy colored speakers. I didn't write anything else.

 

[Tovarich007]

It seems that it’s the amphion having boosted bass

I haven't checked the Amphion's specs, but as for Genelec, their monitors certainly don't present such an important deviation from neutral FR.

 

[richard12511]

I only meant every serious recording or mastering venue, whatever the type of music, needs a good neutral system, and that's why in classical specialized studios, where neutrallity and "naturalness" of acoustic timbers are key factors, you don't find fancy colored speakers. I didn't write anything else.

You would think. Interestingly though, it seems that many classical music shops use B&W 800 series, which look to be not super neutral. @tuga started a thread about it here somewhere, but I don't remember the name of the thread.

 

[tuga]

You would think. Interestingly though, it seems that many classical music shops use B&W 800 series, which look to be not super neutral. @tuga started a thread about it here somewhere, but I don't remember the name of the thread.

This one?

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ers-are-the-classical-music-pros-using.12225/

 

[Frank Dernie]

One could argue that pop/rock is the most serious genre, since that's where most of the money is, and where there's presumably the most to lose.

Definitely, and the mix must sound good, obviously.
Classical has, perhaps, different requirements in as much as a big orchestra will have a much wider dynamic range over a big piece like a hour long Symphony with markings from ffff to pppp. Also the real sound of acoustic instruments is known and is not best deviated from much, whereas a lot of great rock music uses distortion addition as part of the sound, including, presumably, adding a bit at the mixing and mastering stage if the artist wants to which is not something likely in a classical mix.
So different approaches are likely.
It is pop/rock for over 90% of music listening though, so that is where the big market and money is.

 

[Tovarich007]

You would think. Interestingly though, it seems that many classical music shops use B&W 800 series, which look to be not super neutral. @tuga started a thread about it here somewhere, but I don't remember the name of the thread.

Not so many classical venues are using B&W 800, Richard.

Yes, some studios are using B&W 800, or less expensive B&W series as well, to serve as reference for a typical good sound for classical or acoustic music in a domestic environment.

It makes sense because B&W 800 are not that much colored, not fully neutral Ok, but many other hifi speakers, and sometimes pro speakers, are so much worse in that respect. Anyway, they can sound pretty good, absolutely non agressive, even with their slight coloration - I am talking about the previous génération of B&W 800, because to my ears the D3 generation sounds a little more hifi in the bad sense of the term, not a bad speaker but more colored than the D2 generation (though more expensive, and this doesn't make sense).

And don't forget that B&W are marketing masters, so they have a tendancy to emphasize for commercial reasons their real impact in the pro audio market.