Amphion vs Genelec

[Postlan]

If you're asking about the diffraction part, we can clearly see that the sharp edge monitors are certainly more popular than round shape ones among professionals. If you're not familiar with it, please check professional audio publishing. The reason why this is, I guess it's far easier to determine the correct level of the instruments and vocals when they are lined up on a 2D plane rather than they are plotted in deep 3D space.

 

[q3cpma]

If you're asking about the diffraction part, we can clearly see that the sharp edge monitors are certainly more popular than round shape ones among professionals.

Argumentum ad populum is of no value here. And to be honest, this is probably wrong. For example, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ers-are-the-classical-music-pros-using.12225/ shows a lot of B&W with spherical or beveled baffles. Genelec and Neumann are also quite popular in studios.

If you're not familiar with it, please check professional audio publishing. The reason why this is, I guess it's far easier to determine the correct level of the instruments and vocals when they are lined up on a 2D plane rather than they are plotted in deep 3D space.

I'm sorry, but I have no idea of what you mean. Are you talking about wavefront shape? Because a flat baffle isn't really what determine that.

 

[dfuller]

Argumentum ad populum is of no value here. And to be honest, this is probably wrong. For example, https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ers-are-the-classical-music-pros-using.12225/ shows a lot of B&W with spherical or beveled baffles. Genelec and Neumann are also quite popular in studios.

A fair number of companies make sure to not have sharp corner baffles - be they rounded over, beveled, or spherical. It's pretty well accepted at this point that it's not a great idea to allow that kind of edge diffraction.

 

[Postlan]

B&W has been used for classical recordings, not pop/rock mixing. It's impossible to explain things to who does not understand music production , so if you're interested in this subject, I would recommend you to go to professional music forum and ask your question. The point is sharp edged speakers are more popular in the professional mixing stage even if it's not the "correct" speakers as consumer speakers. If you do not mix yourself, I'm pretty sure you will be more happy with Genelec than Amphion. Amphion is a better version of NS10M, and no one would ever recommend NS10M to audiophiles.

 

[andreasmaaan]

B&W is using for classical recording, not pop/rock mixing. It's impossible to explain these to who does not understand music production ,so if you're interested in this subject, I would recommend to go to professionalisms music forum and ask your question. The point is sharp edged speakers are more popular in the professional mixing stage even if it's not the "correct" speakers for consumer speakers.

I work partly in music production, perhaps you could explain it to me?

 

[Postlan]

Explain what? You can go to your favorite professional music forum and find your answer...

 

[andreasmaaan]

Explain what? You can go to your favorite professional music forum and find your answer...

I meant, could you please explain why monitors with diffractive edges are better for mixing rock and pop music?

 

[Postlan]

Because it makes things more 2D as I explained, but it's nothing but my guess, not the fact. If you can find a better answer why many professional engineers still prefer sharp edged speaker, and many manufactures keep making sharp edged speakers for professional market, please let me know.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Because it makes things more 2D as I explained, but it's nothing but my guess, not the fact.

Ok, I must have missed where you said that. Well, I can't see any technical reason this would be the case. The sharp edges result in more extreme diffraction, which means that reflections from the baffle edge have a higher amplitude and therefore interfere more strongly with the direct sound. Why would this reduce soundstage depth in your opinion?

Anyway, this question is hardly relevant to the question of Amphion vs Genelec, since the Amphion's use of a waveguide that extends almost to the edge of the baffle will largely negate the effects of baffle edge diffraction for frequencies of wavelength shorter than the baffle width in the first place.

 

[richard12511]

If you're asking about the diffraction part, we can clearly see that the sharp edge monitors are certainly more popular than round shape ones among professionals. If you're not familiar with it, please check professional audio publishing. The reason why this is, I guess it's far easier to determine the correct level of the instruments and vocals when they are lined up on a 2D plane rather than they are plotted in deep 3D space.

More popular does not equal better, unless you think Sonos speakers and Apple airpods are as good as it gets. Flat baffle speakers are more common because there are more of them in production. There are more of them in production because they're easier and require less engineering to make, but make no mistake that they are usually inferior sonically.

 

[Hephaestus]

Postlan, ASR is a forum for science, research and measurement based discussion. This is not GS or some random subjectivist audio forum.

I have noticed an alarming rate of new members joining here and posting subjective opinions without any objective data.

 

[Postlan]

Ok, I must have missed where you said that. Well, I can't see any technical reason this would be the case. The sharp edges result in more extreme diffraction, which means that reflections from the baffle edge have a higher amplitude and therefore interfere more strongly with the direct sound. Why would this reduce soundstage depth in your opinion?

Anyway, this question is hardly relevant to the question of Amphion vs Genelec, since the Amphion's use of a waveguide that extends almost to the edge of the baffle will largely negate the effects of baffle edge diffraction for frequencies of wavelength shorter than the baffle width in the first place.

I honestly don't know the correlation between reflections from the baffle edge and sound stage depth, but that what I guessed based my own experiences. If any studies about it, I would like to know. Amphion's waveguide may negate some baffle diffraction, but not all of them as you said, and that why many speakers have both waveguide and round edge.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I honestly don't know the correlation between reflections from the baffle edge and sound stage depth, but that what I guessed based my own experiences. If any studies about it, I would like to know. Amphion's waveguide may negate some baffle diffraction, but not all of them as you said, that why many speaker have both waveguide and round edge.

Ok, but a rounded baffle edge won't negate all baffle edge diffraction, either. The mitigating effects on baffle edge diffraction will be pretty similar for a waveguide with a rounded-off mouth vs a flat baffle of approximately the same width but with a rounded edge.

Just curious: what speakers have you personally experimented with that led you to this idea?

 

[Postlan]

I have had a lot of small speakers in my life, NS10M, Genelec 1030/1031, Barefoot MM27, B&W 805, Focal Be twin, several JBLs, Dynaudio, Wastlake, Amphion. If you have any question about those specific speakers, I can answer your question.

Anyway, do you have your own answer why many professionals prefer sharp edged speakers?

PS: I also owned Lipinski for a while.

 

[andreasmaaan]

I have had a lot of small speakers in my life, NS10M, Genelec 1030/1031, Barefoot MM27, B&W 805, Focal Be twin, several JBLs, Dynaudio, Wastlake, Amphion. If you have any question about those specific speaker, I can answer your question,

Thanks One question would be: did you also experience a lack of 3D depth with speakers like the Amphion or the Genelec 1031 which use a reasonably large waveguide, or did these speakers seem to produce a slightly deeper soundstage than speakers like the Focal Be Twin or the MM27?

Anyway, do you have your own answer why many professionals prefer sharp edged speakers?

I wasn't aware that a preference for sharp edge speakers was all that common among that many pros, although I don't work at all in the pop/rock field, and I don't frequent pro audio forums much at all, really. Which studios or engineers use flat-baffled speakers with non-rounded edges as their main monitors that you know of? And is this something that is unique to pop/rock or other genres too in your experience?

 

[dfuller]

I wasn't aware that a preference for sharp edge speakers was all that common among that many pros, although I don't work at all in the pop/rock field, and I don't frequent pro audio forums much at all, really. Which studios or engineers use flat-baffled speakers with non-rounded edges as their main monitors that you know of? And is this something that is unique to pop/rock or other genres too in your experience?

I do work in pop/rock, and I have no idea where this came from. Most people I know tend to prefer speakers that end up (unsurprisingly) measuring fairly well - be they Focal, Dynaudio, Barefoot, Genelec, etc etc - or they just use NS10s, because somehow they're still a relatively good speaker for mixing despite being one of the ugliest least flat speakers I've ever heard.

 

[Postlan]

Thanks One question would be: did you also experience a lack of 3D depth with speakers like the Amphion or the Genelec 1031 which use a reasonably large waveguide, or did these speakers seem to produce a slightly deeper soundstage than speakers like the Focal Be Twin or the MM27?


I wasn't aware that a preference for sharp edge speakers was all that common among that many pros, although I don't work at all in the pop/rock field, and I don't frequent pro audio forums much at all, really. Which studios or engineers use flat-baffled speakers with non-rounded edges as their main monitors that you know of? And is this something that is unique to pop/rock or other genres too in your experience?

I honestly don't think I can directly hear the effect of waveguide. Assuming you're not calling large studio monitors "main", you'll find many top players still rely on old NS10M, 1031, ProAc, etc. You may want to check MIX magazine or manufacture's web site to see who uses what monitors these days. I do not follow the most recent trend, but last time I researched, it seemed ATC was gaining popularity along with Amphion and Barefoot. I'm sure they are all capable mixing monitors, waveguide or not.

 

[YSC]

I do work in pop/rock, and I have no idea where this came from. Most people I know tend to prefer speakers that end up (unsurprisingly) measuring fairly well - be they Focal, Dynaudio, Barefoot, Genelec, etc etc - or they just use NS10s, because somehow they're still a relatively good speaker for mixing despite being one of the ugliest least flat speakers I've ever heard.

I don't work in any production myself but I believe most studio monitors nowadays on list are what the pros chose to work with. Most recent designs from brands marketing studio monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Adam, KRK, JBL, just to name a few), do apply some sort of rounding or sloped edges to minimize diffractions and that should be what the pros are after.

and on a side note I do work part time as photographer and while my choice of main monitor for tuning of colour toning for printout I do have a crap old TN panel monitor together with a sharp vivid toned smartphone to cross check that my output won't look too awkward on most client's device. that TN monitor is by no means what I relied on tuning the photo but just as a final check for minor adjustments to avoid certain complaints. I believe in audio pros tend to have a second pair of more layman crap speakers or the good old car test to make sure the mix won't sound crap with craped out bass or messy highs on those cheap but popular speaker/earphones.

 

[dfuller]

Most recent designs from brands marketing studio monitors (Genelec, Neumann, Adam, KRK, JBL, just to name a few), do apply some sort of rounding or sloped edges to minimize diffractions and that should be what the pros are after.

Yeah, generally that's the case.

I believe in audio pros tend to have a second pair of more layman crap speakers or the good old car test to make sure the mix won't sound crap with crapped out bass or messy highs on those cheap but popular speaker/earphones.

Yup - they're called "grotboxes" in industry parlance. NS10s and Auratone 5Cs are the most famous - and I see Realistic Minimus 7s sometimes too.

 

[Postlan]

Old days, we used the built in mono speaker on Studer 2 track machine.