Ampapa D1 or 3e audio A7/A5

[yavormoskov]

I am trying to decide between 3E audio A7 or A5 and Ampapa D1. I don't care about screens, features or vu meters. However, I really care about the sound. Have you tried them both and if yes, which one you prefer? Thanks.

 

[ianjams21]

I am trying to decide between 3E audio A7 or A5 and Ampapa D1. I don't care about screens, features or vu meters. However, I really care about the sound. Have you tried them both and if yes, which one you prefer? Thanks.

Check out this thread https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ampapa-d1-tpa3255-amplifier-whos-your-daddy.978183/page-2

He mentions something about Ampapa D1 scaling better due to cheaper Elco caps on the 3E Audio

 

[Svend P]

He mentions something about Ampapa D1 scaling better due to cheaper Elco caps on the 3E Audio

Headfi will fill your head with audiophool nonsense. Properly designed amplifiers will sound identical.

The A7 got a recommendation on ASR because it measures quite well. That would be my pick

3e audio A7/A7 Mono Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the A7 / "A7 Mono" stereo power amplifier with balanced inputs. It was sent to me by the company. I have no idea what it costs in US. Audiophonics lists it for 379,00 €tax incl. While the A7 may look like its competitors, it has a heft to it that I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[ianjams21]

Headfi will fill your head with audiophool nonsense. Properly designed amplifiers will sound identical.

The A7 got a recommendation on ASR because it measures quite well. That would be my pick

3e audio A7/A7 Mono Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the A7 / "A7 Mono" stereo power amplifier with balanced inputs. It was sent to me by the company. I have no idea what it costs in US. Audiophonics lists it for 379,00 €tax incl. While the A7 may look like its competitors, it has a heft to it that I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

HPF and Sub Out are really nice though.

 

[TurtlePaul]

edit:

Schlippwhip points out that the Ampapa does have PFFB. It looks loke this is based on the Duok A5 Pro (PFFB) not the A5 (non-PFFB). I don’t think anyone has measured their PFFB implementation.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

The Ampapa is based on the Douk A5, which is your typical TPA3255 implementation without post-filter feedback (PFFB). The lack of PFFB will also cause errors in the frequency response at higher frequencies with most speaker loads.

A Fosi v3 stereo will have the same performance as the Ampapa and you can get one of those for $55 without a power brick.

The e3 A7 is about 15 dB better in noise and distortion because of the PFFB implementation and it is better into low impedances because it has one TPA3255 per channel instead of one shared.

Only get the Duok A5 if you want to use the crossover filter. Only get the Ampapa if you really want VU meters.

Misinformation there I’m afraid, the D1 already has PFFB and so does the Douk Audio A5.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

I can recommend the D1. I’m running mine with opa828 in there and Muses 02 in the Q1 and Douk Audio P7.

I chose the opa828 for the D1 as they are super neutral, no colouration to the sound. Excellent bass, clean and tight and precise frequency separation. The Muses 02 pushes through from the Q1 with a very immersive touch to the sound, clean, dark background. A very good combination.

I would like to see Ampapa/Douk release a XL version of the D1 having two TRS inputs, this would allow a straight connection to the Q1 and run a preamp separately. Great for comparing dacs too.

A full sized volume knob on the P7 to match the Q1/D1 would have been nice too. The Fiio SR11 is in a temporary position there as I have just rolled the op amps in the P7.

Very clean, detailed sound.

 

[RandomEar]

This thread is spiraling into another op amp rolling nonsense story. There's ample information about rolling on ASR [1, 2] - it typically results in the device measuring worse than before the switch. And it almost never makes any audible difference. And if it does, it will usually be because there's copious amounts of distortion due to an incompatible op amp being installed.

Think about this: Do you really think you can improve the design of a circuit by just randomly swapping arbitrary components without any understanding of the circuit itself? The original designer spent weeks on PCB design and component selection, simulated the circuit using advanced software and built on reference designs by the manufacturer of the DAC who's got decades of experience. How do you expect to improve upon this amount of expertise without thoroughly analysing and understanding the original design, followed by then simulating and/or measuring any changes in detail???

 

[DSJR]

Качественный конденсатор – это не пустая трата денег.


Недостаточно просто правильно спроектировать, важно правильно изготовить изделие из подходящих компонентов.

If I get the translation to English correctly, my personal experience is that *CORRECT DESIGN* is the most important thing of all. Fitting boutique components to a decent design will almost certainly NOT make a meaningful difference apart from wallet-emptying...

Audiophool basic lashed-together amps with severe design compromises however, may well benefit from fancy-foo caps, silver wiring and so on - and also, the user may well feel better for having them, which itself will improve the sonic perceptions in that individual... - It took me decades to begin to understand how important psychoacoustics is to subjectivists without them knowing!

As in the post above by @RandomEar, hang around a while and get a feel for the place, as well as posts by electronics experts who've been there and practically done it (I've just spent a lifetime on both sides of the subjective-objective divide and had to learn by experience what these engineers could tell you straight off! )

My vibe now is to buy products that do the job properly without added 'foo' and which will be worth something on the used market as and when the upgrading bug bites!!!

 

[Schlippwhip68]

This thread is spiraling into another op amp rolling nonsense story. There's ample information about rolling on ASR [1, 2] - it typically results in the device measuring worse than before the switch. And it almost never makes any audible difference. And if it does, it will usually be because there's copious amounts of distortion due to an incompatible op amp being installed.

Think about this: Do you really think you can improve the design of a circuit by just randomly swapping arbitrary components without any understanding of the circuit itself? The original designer spent weeks on PCB design and component selection, simulated the circuit using advanced software and built on reference designs by the manufacturer of the DAC who's got decades of experience. How do you expect to improve upon this amount of expertise without thoroughly analysing and understanding the original design, followed by then simulating and/or measuring any changes in detail???

It really surprises me sometimes when people say how much they know about electronics and can’t even read a post properly because they are literally to hell bent on their own prefixed argument. Random Ear sounds like an AI generated argument and nothing else.

No one has mentioned anything about circuit design or is claiming any credit for improving such or even attempting to do such a thing.

This is just someone’s personal experience towards the sound quality and tonal signature of the amplifier which is along the lines of OP’s quandary in choosing which amp would be best to which some have replied as to the pros and cons of each and might I add incorrectly.
Suffice to say, if you can’t tell any sonic difference in op amp rolling ie changes in bass weight, clarity, speed, accuracy, timing, tonality etc then you are not really qualified at all to comment in the first place regardless as these are real life characteristics that truly exist.
As long as you remain with in the remit of the design of the amplifier in the first place which most whom roll op amp do then it’s a great and real way of altering the sound.

That said I personally think the 3e is overpriced and overrated. The D1 is better value even in stock form.

 

[RandomEar]

It really surprises me sometimes when people say how much they know about electronics and can’t even read a post properly because they are literally to hell bent on their own prefixed argument. Random Ear sounds like an AI generated argument and nothing else.

I don't see where I claimed to know a lot about electronics, but maybe this doesn't address my post.

Nonetheless, depreciating people by suggesting they "sound like AI" just because you disagree with them seems pretty unnecessary to me.

No one has mentioned anything about circuit design or is claiming any credit for improving such or even attempting to do such a thing.

You literally changed components in a circuit and claim this vastly improved the sound.

I just stated that it's pretty important to have circuit design knowledge and/or do valid testing to have a realistic shot at improving an existing design.

This is just someone’s personal experience towards the sound quality and tonal signature of the amplifier which is along the lines of OP’s quandary in choosing which amp would be best to which some have replied as to the pros and cons of each and might I add incorrectly.

Fair enough, it's your experience.

Suffice to say, if you can’t tell any sonic difference in op amp rolling ie changes in bass weight, clarity, speed, accuracy, timing, tonality etc then you are not really qualified at all to comment in the first place regardless as these are real life characteristics that truly exist
As long as you remain with in the remit of the design of the amplifier in the first place which most whom roll op amp do then it’s a great and real way of altering the sound.

You think there are sonic differences, but the measurements I linked show that there very, very likely aren't any. Here's one more recent data point to support this. You should understand that your subjective impression isn't a fact. Realize that human senses aren't precise and reliable instruments: They are severely biased, they have flaws and can easily be tricked. Unless you can support your subjective experience with verifiable data, you'll have a very hard time here at audiosciencereview.

In addition, suggesting people have no say in discussing objectively verifiable facts because they didn't personally listen to some specific combination of electronics is just a bad faith argument.

That said I personally thinks the 3e is overpriced and overrated. The D1 is better value even in stock form.

Not sure I'd call the 3e overrated, but the D1 certainly offers the better feature set. I especially like the high-pass filter.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

I don't see where I claimed to know a lot about electronics, but maybe this doesn't address my post.

Nonetheless, depreciating people by suggesting they "sound like AI" just because you disagree with them seems pretty unnecessary to me.


You literally changed components in a circuit and claim this vastly improved the sound.

I just stated that it's pretty important to have circuit design knowledge and/or do valid testing to have a realistic shot at improving an existing design.


Fair enough, it's your experience.


You think there are sonic differences, but the measurements I linked show that there very, very likely aren't any. Here's one more recent data point to support this. You should understand that your subjective impression isn't a fact. Realize that human senses aren't precise and reliable instruments: They are severely biased, they have flaws and can easily be tricked. Unless you can support your subjective experience with verifiable data, you'll have a very hard time here at audiosciencereview.

In addition, suggesting people have no say in discussing objectively verifiable facts because they didn't personally listen to some specific combination of electronics is just a bad faith argument.


Not sure I'd call the 3e overrated, but the D1 certainly offers the better feature set. I especially like the high-pass filter.

…”vastly”…really…where?
Nevermind, happy Christmas brother!

I wouldn’t say vast myself but certainly notable and one that will lead to user preference.

 

[TurtlePaul]

That said I personally think the 3e is overpriced and overrated. The D1 is better value even in stock form.

The price of the 3e is because it uses two TPA3255 chips in a dual mono PBTL configuration. It makes the amp stable at 2 ohm loads, but I agree that is is pretty useless for most people.

The reputation of the 3e is because they have sent the amps in to be tested and they are right up there with the best PFFB amps.

The D1 is very hard to find test data, so they need to get units to Amir/Erin/Archimago.

 

[Crook]

"It took me decades to begin to understand how important psychoacoustics is to subjectivists without them knowing!"

Amen. Without level matched blind testing, all sighted subjective opinions are 100% meaningless.

1) it has been proven here op amp rolling does not make an audible difference (unless you f*** up the circuit).

2) The OPs question is not hard to answer. If you need the feature set of HPF buy the Douk, if you need the power/ difficult load buy the A7.

End of the day, they will sound the same.

 

[GGroch]

I own both the 3e A5 and the Ampapa D1. I have listened to both extensively on the same system. I am of the scientific/objective school (so, I believe in measurement, and believe in confirmation bias, including my own.

Comparing the two:
1. On my system (moderately/low efficiency speakers, medium to lower volume) I hear no difference at all. Both sound great, clean, no noise, I believe in my system they are both effectively transparent, and the measurements I have seen suggest they are.

2. I swapped out the Original OPA1656 op amps on my 3e A5 with a pair of Muses02 (which I got free from Fosi on a kickstarter deal). They both sounded great. I can convince myself that the Muses02 may be more musical because that is what they advertise, but I am certain that is in my head not my ears. Still, switching op amps is a fun cheap thing to do, and both amps can do it. The 3e Amps have an added benefit, they have an internal jumper to let you use lower voltage Op Amps (like the Muses02) without danger of frying.

3. They both have above average build and are nicely made, but they have different design goals.

1. The best stuff on the 3e A5 is on the inside. Its PBTL design can put out twice the current of a BTL, and handle low 2 Ohm loads with no problem. I do not need this feature, but because of my bias, I think it is good to have and am willing to pay for it.
2. The criticism that the 3e uses cheap parts (caps) is ridiculous. The capacitors in question are main reservoir capacitors which are not in the signal path (changing brands will not change the sound). They DO act to provide reserve power on transients, so SIZE matters. the D1 has a 2200mf cap, the Douk A5 and A5 Pro have 3300mf (so for some reason, less on the D1), the 3e A5 has 4000mf (4x1000). That is almost double the reserve of the D1, if you ever need it. The 3e amps are generally overbuilt on the inside, and less equipped in terms of features.
   
3. The best stuff (and the reason I bought it) of the D1 are on the outside. The remote is great to have, the meters are cool and provide good information when you adjust things. The rear HPF may be useful for those using subs, the Bluetooth is nice to have. Bass and Treble controls can make a real difference that will dwarf any minute difference in circuitry
4. My only real concern on the D1 is its heat dissipation. Check the D1 thread here for a discussion of this. I also wish you could turn off the display, not just dim it. This makes it more important that you shut off the power when not in use. If your source has a 12v trigger you can use that with the D1.
5. The OP says they do not need the features of the D1. In my case, looking at the fun meters is the only feature I need as I use a Wiim Ultra which does everything else, and in fact has its own cool meters). So, I like playing with the D1 but leave the 3e A5 in my system all the time because I am convinced that even though I do not hear a difference, if there is one, the 3e would have the advantage... So, it makes me feel better.
6. I would expect the D1 if measured by Amir would measure slightly worse than the Douk A5, but be just fine. Is the D1 a better value, only if you want the features. If you do not, the Douck A5 A5 Pro are far better values. 3e is a boutique company that has specialized in TPA325X amps since the start. I have contacted them on multiple occasions and they answer immediately and seem smart. I think the 3e A5 is worth every penny for users like me.

 

[yavormoskov]

Thank you everyone for sharing your opinions in this thread. Some of us believe in measurements above all. Others, in opamp rolling, tubes and cables. But what unites us in this hobby is our shared love and admiration for music. I wish you a very happy New year and all the health and luck for you and your families.

 

[ROY_H]

I have to admit to becoming addicted to these TPA32XX based Class D amps. Currently running a 3E A7 which I'm really pleased with. Reading about this AMPAPA D1 is very tempting, especially given the ridiculously low price (£170 currently!!). The only thing is I like my current system where I'm using a Topping Ext90 pre-amp which allows use of my Pro-Ject phono pre, all running in balanced (I run fully balanced all the way through from MC cartridge and also from a Topping DAC). The 3E A7 has a volume bypass so acts very nicely as a pure power amp. I'm guessing the D1 doesn't have this facility so not so useable as a pure power amp. Equally, just how different can all these TPA32XX based amps be in the end, most of them implementing PFFB now as standard anyway.

 

[GGroch]

.....I'm guessing the D1 doesn't have this facility so not so useable as a pure power amp. Equally, just how different can all these TPA32XX based amps be in the end, most of them implementing PFFB now as standard anyway.

Correct, the D1 does not have volume bypass, though in my use that is not much of a problem as I just leave it cranked to 11.

PFFB is a standard in that its a feature that enthusiast TPA32XX amps must have to have to be popular; but how it is implemented is not standard. Some like the 3e amps work well, others don't and there are theoretically major downsides. No measurements yet on the D1.

Its not clear to me whether the D1's 12v trigger would work with your setup which matters as the display cannot be disabled.

I'm easily distracted by shiny objects and the D1 scratches that itch, but the Douk VU360 would make more sense in my system as I could get the flash without the possibility of sound degradation (by using the built in mic).

 

[Schlippwhip68]

I have to admit to becoming addicted to these TPA32XX based Class D amps. Currently running a 3E A7 which I'm really pleased with. Reading about this AMPAPA D1 is very tempting, especially given the ridiculously low price (£170 currently!!). The only thing is I like my current system where I'm using a Topping Ext90 pre-amp which allows use of my Pro-Ject phono pre, all running in balanced (I run fully balanced all the way through from MC cartridge and also from a Topping DAC). The 3E A7 has a volume bypass so acts very nicely as a pure power amp. I'm guessing the D1 doesn't have this facility so not so useable as a pure power amp. Equally, just how different can all these TPA32XX based amps be in the end, most of them implementing PFFB now as standard anyway.

Curiosity is an expensive state of heart and mind. I have the D1 and still bought the Onkyo A-9110 today.

The D1 is a very nicely put together amp. I don’t have any negatives to mention but one nice feature that could come in useful that the D1 currently does not have is a second TRS input. I would love to run two dacs via this little amp as the Q1 dac can feed two amps with its twin TRS output. It’s not an essential expansion realistically, just poetic license I think.

Also the Tibo PA150 power amp is another fairly cheap alternative that either the Douk Audio P7, Aiyima T20 or even the Ampapa Q1 could easily feed with decent results. I’m not sure how the Tibo PA150 measures but it’s a decent value power amp regardless.

 

[Schlippwhip68]

I own both the 3e A5 and the Ampapa D1. I have listened to both extensively on the same system. I am of the scientific/objective school (so, I believe in measurement, and believe in confirmation bias, including my own.

Comparing the two:
1. On my system (moderately/low efficiency speakers, medium to lower volume) I hear no difference at all. Both sound great, clean, no noise, I believe in my system they are both effectively transparent, and the measurements I have seen suggest they are.

2. I swapped out the Original OPA1656 op amps on my 3e A5 with a pair of Muses02 (which I got free from Fosi on a kickstarter deal). They both sounded great. I can convince myself that the Muses02 may be more musical because that is what they advertise, but I am certain that is in my head not my ears. Still, switching op amps is a fun cheap thing to do, and both amps can do it. The 3e Amps have an added benefit, they have an internal jumper to let you use lower voltage Op Amps (like the Muses02) without danger of frying.

3. They both have above average build and are nicely made, but they have different design goals.

1. The best stuff on the 3e A5 is on the inside. Its PBTL design can put out twice the current of a BTL, and handle low 2 Ohm loads with no problem. I do not need this feature, but because of my bias, I think it is good to have and am willing to pay for it.
2. The criticism that the 3e uses cheap parts (caps) is ridiculous. The capacitors in question are main reservoir capacitors which are not in the signal path (changing brands will not change the sound). They DO act to provide reserve power on transients, so SIZE matters. the D1 has a 2200mf cap, the Douk A5 and A5 Pro have 3300mf (so for some reason, less on the D1), the 3e A5 has 4000mf (4x1000). That is almost double the reserve of the D1, if you ever need it. The 3e amps are generally overbuilt on the inside, and less equipped in terms of features. View attachment 499975
3. The best stuff (and the reason I bought it) of the D1 are on the outside. The remote is great to have, the meters are cool and provide good information when you adjust things. The rear HPF may be useful for those using subs, the Bluetooth is nice to have. Bass and Treble controls can make a real difference that will dwarf any minute difference in circuitry
4. My only real concern on the D1 is its heat dissipation. Check the D1 thread here for a discussion of this. I also wish you could turn off the display, not just dim it. This makes it more important that you shut off the power when not in use. If your source has a 12v trigger you can use that with the D1.
5. The OP says they do not need the features of the D1. In my case, looking at the fun meters is the only feature I need as I use a Wiim Ultra which does everything else, and in fact has its own cool meters). So, I like playing with the D1 but leave the 3e A5 in my system all the time because I am convinced that even though I do not hear a difference, if there is one, the 3e would have the advantage... So, it makes me feel better.
6. I would expect the D1 if measured by Amir would measure slightly worse than the Douk A5, but be just fine. Is the D1 a better value, only if you want the features. If you do not, the Douck A5 A5 Pro are far better values. 3e is a boutique company that has specialized in TPA325X amps since the start. I have contacted them on multiple occasions and they answer immediately and seem smart. I think the 3e A5 is worth every penny for users like me.

Great post, thanks for sharing. I run my D1 with a 36v 6a power supply and can say with confidence that I have no issues with heat, it gets warm but not hot to touch. I occasionally may use a slim usb fan (80mm x 10mm) or a smaller 40mm x 10mm if only using the amp in single stack form. It’s plenty to keep the amp cool, even cold. Quite discreet too when placed properly.

I haven’t touched the stock 48v power supply. In truth have never wished to use 48v with these chip amps and found 36v to be ample for my needs.

The Sagami coils on the D1 run just fine without too much heat using the 36v. Using the 48v they do run hot as other tests have confirmed on YouTube.

So maybe two improvements would be a more robust Sagami coil set and larger caps for the D1.