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Amp suggestion for a single Auratone 5C

Joined
Aug 17, 2020
Messages
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Location
Japan
Hi there,

I have another newbie question. I'm not sure if this is the right place. And if this topic was covered before would you pls direct me to there cuz I havent found any thread from you guys about this here, so I'd like to ask for some direction.

I've just got an Auratone 5C Super Sound Cube for the purpose of mixing in mono and for learning my craft as well. I want to study this box, its bad poor sound and idiosyncracies that I only heard of from books and magazines.

So I want an amp that wont skew, compensate, improve or colour the auratone in any way, in the same way Toppings or THXs amps won't colour headphones. Just a reliable clean amp without fan which doesnt cost twice or more the price of the auratone.

Some people say the Crown D-75 matches with it, other says that is no good.
I've heard about Samson Servo 120a.
And Auratone has their own amp, the A2-30, which is pretty expensive for what an Auratone costs here, in Japan.

Does anyone have experience with this grotbox?
 
Any amp with sufficient power will be ok. There really is no amp sound as such unless you use something deliberately underpowered or a tube amp. Keep the amp out of clipping and you'll have no issue assessing the speakers for what they are.
 
Even something as cheap and mediocre as an an ART SLA-1 (100 wpc @ 8 ohms, THD+N 0.05%/-66dB typical according to spec) would be plenty of power and low enough distortion for something like an Auratone. Auratones are just objectively nasty speakers - but they're supposed to be. They're called "horrortones" for a reason!
 
I've just got a Yamaha P2080. 250w at 8ohms mono it seems. I hope it will be okay.

So what about cable connections?
I make all my cables at home btw... XLR, TR, TRS, RCA, but I have no experience with cables for passive speakers.

What material of cable and gauge are preferable?
Are those banana connectors used just for the sake of convenience?
Or do they improve the contact compared to just bare wire?
 
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I've just got a Yamaha P2080. 250w at 8ohms mono it seems. I hope it will be okay.
Seems to be a Japan-only model, but Yamaha power amps from the '80s and early '90s tend to be really solid. The specs of this one (see user manual) aren't what I would call awe-inspiring in the distortion department but it should get the job done. HF THD seems to be the weak point, maybe they're running the output stage pretty lean as par for the course in PA amps (this is done in the interest of robustness as it maximizes transistor SOA). If you can get ahold of a service manual, that should tell you whether idle current can be adjusted and how.
What material of cable and gauge are preferable?
Twin lead, stranded, copper (pure). Gauge depending on length. A single driver speaker actually is not very critical in terms of damping factor (not a great deal more than 10 required), so on short runs (up to 6') you could even get away with something ridiculously thin like 28AWG. Not much of a point in anything beyond 20 or 18AWG here. Some ordinary electrical cord should easily fit the bill.
Are those banana connectors used just for the sake of convenience?
Pretty much.
 
Nevermind my friends. I've just blew my brand new auratone now.
the amp was with the knobs at max power when I turned on and i didn't check that.
Now it's over.
It's impossible to not hate myself now
 
Whoops. That was a bit of a rookie mistake, but I guess you're well aware of that now.

Here's to hoping that either Auratone themselves or the local distributor can hook you up with a replacement driver.

The amp itself is fine though? I'd check for DC voltage on the output with a multimeter, just in case there is a problem and a previous owner was stupid and bypassed the protection relay...
Or did you have something playing and it was just VERY LOUD for a short time before the sound went out?
 
Seems to be a Japan-only model, but Yamaha power amps from the '80s and early '90s tend to be really solid. The specs of this one (see user manual) aren't what I would call awe-inspiring in the distortion department but it should get the job done. HF THD seems to be the weak point, maybe they're running the output stage pretty lean as par for the course in PA amps (this is done in the interest of robustness as it maximizes transistor SOA). If you can get ahold of a service manual, that should tell you whether idle current can be adjusted and how.

Twin lead, stranded, copper (pure). Gauge depending on length. A single driver speaker actually is not very critical in terms of damping factor (not a great deal more than 10 required), so on short runs (up to 6') you could even get away with something ridiculously thin like 28AWG. Not much of a point in anything beyond 20 or 18AWG here. Some ordinary electrical cord should easily fit the bill.

Pretty much.

I forgot to show my appreciation for your time to reply to this thread. I'm sorry about that.

"If you can get ahold of a service manual, that should tell you whether idle current can be adjusted and how."/QUOTE

That seems like a job for actual engineers. I'll have to research about it.

Thank you for the information.
 
Whoops. That was a bit of a rookie mistake, but I guess you're well aware of that now.

Here's to hoping that either Auratone themselves or the local distributor can hook you up with a replacement driver.

The amp itself is fine though? I'd check for DC voltage on the output with a multimeter, just in case there is a problem and a previous owner was stupid and bypassed the protection relay...
Or did you have something playing and it was just VERY LOUD for a short time before the sound went out?

I'll check the dc voltage.

What happened is, the amp's knob was at max power, and I was thinking it was at zero.
Turned the amp on, played a track and the Auratone played at very low volume due to the audio interface knob being low.
It just took about 5 seconds and the sound slowly faded away went it's dead.
 
Nevermind my friends. I've just blew my brand new auratone now.
the amp was with the knobs at max power when I turned on and i didn't check that.
Now it's over.
It's impossible to not hate myself now
Everyone's done it at least once:D
 
I'll check the dc voltage.
Both channels, too.

While you've got a multimeter at hand, measure the Auratone's DC resistance as well. A nominal 8 ohm driver should give about 6-6.5 ohms usually. If you see 2-3 ohms or even lower the voice coil is probably burnt to a crisp, and if you see an open some wire may have come off or vaporized.
Does the driver still have some give to it if you push on the membrane around the dustcap, or is it stuck entirely (which would indicate a toasty voice coil again)?

What happened is, the amp's knob was at max power, and I was thinking it was at zero.
Turned the amp on, played a track and the Auratone played at very low volume due to the audio interface knob being low.
It just took about 5 seconds and the sound slowly faded away went it's dead.
Huh. Odd.

That's not normally how you kill speakers. They will usually go while literally kicking and screaming. Only DC, DC will kill them quite easily at well below rated power, since they rely on movement for ventilation - and you obviously can't hear it, though most of the time it would be accompanied by a fair amount of hum on a defective amplifier.

The only other thing it could be would be severe ultrasonic oscillation (which can happen if the RC Zobel network at the amplifier output is damaged), though honestly most of the cases I've seen involved fairly low amplitudes, not enough to blow up a 4.5" driver rated 25 W RMS in seconds.

At this point I still wouldn't rule out a case of simple bad contact in the protection relay. Speaking of bad contact, the BTL-SE switch (Stereo - Mono on the back of the amplifier) is another common candidate that may appreciate some movement at the very least.
 
Thank you so much.

Both channels, too.

Both channels fluctuate. Channel B keeps fluctuating from 24.5mV to 11.9mV and Channel A from 1mV to 6.2mV.
What does that tell you?


While you've got a multimeter at hand, measure the Auratone's DC resistance as well. A nominal 8 ohm driver should give about 6-6.5 ohms usually. If you see 2-3 ohms or even lower the voice coil is probably burnt to a crisp, and if you see an open some wire may have come off or vaporized.
Does the driver still have some give to it if you push on the membrane around the dustcap, or is it stuck entirely (which would indicate a toasty voice coil again)?

I push the dustcap and it moves "normally" I believe.

(I couldnt tell whether what I'm measuring is DC or AC resistance by reading my multimeter's manual, so I attached a pic)
Nevertheless, the auratone shows 007.0 Ohms on the multimeter (pic attached). I'm not sure how much ohms that is as I'm a math-illiterate, sorry about that. The multimeter manual says resistance measure ranges from 400ohms to 40M ohms.
I also got a very cheap crappy chinese multimeter and when I put the probes on the auratone connectors, it started to make crackling noises.


Huh. Odd.

That's not normally how you kill speakers. They will usually go while literally kicking and screaming.

That absolutely didnt happen. Wasn't it because my audio interface volume was at zero and I raised slowly until it died?

Are you saying that in my configuration here, turning a 250Watts amp on with its 2 knobs at max but without music wouldn't blow this speaker?
Btw. I attached a pic showing how I made the bridge/mono connecting to show you.


Only DC, DC will kill them quite easily at well below rated power, since they rely on movement for ventilation - and you obviously can't hear it, though most of the time it would be accompanied by a fair amount of hum on a defective amplifier.

That's actually scary. How do you engineers call this "DC malfunction" so that I can investigate more? Can this problem be addressed by a non-engineer/non-electrician?
Are there some good resources (internet and/or books) about amps you would recommend. (I'm actually started to consider taking an Electronics course in some online faculty)


The only other thing it could be would be severe ultrasonic oscillation (which can happen if the RC Zobel network at the amplifier output is damaged), though honestly most of the cases I've seen involved fairly low amplitudes, not enough to blow up a 4.5" driver rated 25 W RMS in seconds.

At this point I still wouldn't rule out a case of simple bad contact in the protection relay. Speaking of bad contact, the BTL-SE switch (Stereo - Mono on the back of the amplifier) is another common candidate that may appreciate some movement at the very least.

RC zobel network, Protection relay, BTL-SE Switch.. This is first time I've heard about these components.
That's fantastic my friend... amp troubleshooting.
I really want to learn this stuff.
 

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An update:

@AnalogSteph you were finding something odd right?

So after reading and responding to your last post, I could manage to reach a friend of mine.
I took the Auratone to him and he ran a sine wave around the frequency spectrum through my cube and everything sounded alright.
It turns out that the speaker wasnt toasted at all.
 
Why on earth would you bridge the amplifier?
GG lil cube, takes his daily overdose like a pro ;)
 
Both channels fluctuate. Channel B keeps fluctuating from 24.5mV to 11.9mV and Channel A from 1mV to 6.2mV.
What does that tell you?
Channel B might be a tad noisy, but other than that nothing to be concerned about. Everything within +/-100 mV is perfectly within reason, and unlikely to be dangerous below +/- 1 V. Amplifier protection circuitry tends to engage at around +/- 600 mV at most.
I push the dustcap and it moves "normally" I believe.

(I couldnt tell whether what I'm measuring is DC or AC resistance by reading my multimeter's manual, so I attached a pic)
Nevertheless, the auratone shows 007.0 Ohms on the multimeter (pic attached). I'm not sure how much ohms that is as I'm a math-illiterate, sorry about that. The multimeter manual says resistance measure ranges from 400ohms to 40M ohms.
I also got a very cheap crappy chinese multimeter and when I put the probes on the auratone connectors, it started to make crackling noises.
All of that would seem to indicate that the speaker is still very much alive.

The multimeter always measures DC resistance. There is no such thing as AC resistance, the AC extension of this concept is called impedance (it's also complex-valued, but getting into complex numbers is probably going too far if you're math-challenged). Resistance is impedance at a frequency of 0 (a.k.a. DC).

And 007.0 ohms is - 7.0 ohms. ;) Sounds about right.
Are you saying that in my configuration here, turning a 250Watts amp on with its 2 knobs at max but without music wouldn't blow this speaker?
Exactly that.

The amplifier could deliver this much power if asked to, but that doesn't mean it's doing that all the time. It's just like a power supply in that regard. That will output a (largely) constant voltage, and output power will depend on what kind of a load you're attaching.
Let's say the load is a resistor. Then Ohm's Law tells us that
R = V * I or
I = V / R.
So the current flowing is determined by the ratio of voltage and resistance.

The power dissipated in a resistor is
P = V * I
With the above, this becomes
P = V * V / R = V² / R

So if you see 20 mV of DC at the output and you've got a 7 ohm resistor (speaker voice coil) attached to it, a grand total of 57 microwatts (µW) is going to be dissipated in said resistor.

An amplifier just provides a certain amount of voltage gain, i.e. it multiplies its input voltage by a certain factor. Its circuitry provides enough output current to back that up into typical load impedances. If you multiply a whole lotta nothing by a constant factor, it's still a whole lotta nothing.

According to P2080 specs, that constant factor (voltage gain) is 26.3 dB at full input volume. You have hopefully come across the unit decibel before (1 dB = 1/10 Bel, remember that Alexander Graham chap with the telephone?), the logarithmic measure that makes large ratios that much easier to handle. In linear terms, that's a factor of 20.65.
According to the P2080's block diagram (gotta love these old Yamaha manuals!), gain should actually double in mono (BTL) mode, so it would be approx. 41.3 or 32.32 dB (= 26.3 dB + 6.02 dB).
A factor of 2 is 6 dB when we're talking voltage or 3 dB in terms of power, that's a good one to remember. Another is a factor of 10: 20 dB (voltage) or 10 dB (power). Why they're different? Actually, these are the same dBs either way. But remember P = V² / R above? If R is kept constant, power increases with the square of voltage. So twice the voltage = 4 times the power, or twice the power = voltage times the square root of 2. In the world of logarithms, the square relation becomes a factor of 2.

Properly understanding a lot of things in electronics does not come without at least some of that dreaded maff, I'm afraid.
Btw. I attached a pic showing how I made the bridge/mono connecting to show you.
Looks alright to me. That said, this little 25 W speaker needs a 250 W BTL output about as much as a hole in the head (or diaphragm, for that matter ;)). You're just increasingly likely to encounter audible hiss. Connect it to Channel A and be done with it, a nominal 80 Wpc is still plenty.

Are there some good resources (internet and/or books) about amps you would recommend. (I'm actually started to consider taking an Electronics course in some online faculty)
Rod Eliott's pages
diyAudio forum (power amplifier stuff would generally go in Solid State)
Douglas Self: Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook
Bob Cordell: Designing Audio Power Amplifiers
RC zobel network, Protection relay, BTL-SE Switch.. This is first time I've heard about these components.
That's fantastic my friend... amp troubleshooting.
I really want to learn this stuff.
I could go through my YT subs for electronic troubleshooting related channels. Off the top of my head, there'd be:
12voltvids (consumer TV & audio repair)
The Guitologist (guitars, guitar amps & misc. - also see Uncle Doug for vintage amps)
More towards the realm of microsoldering and board repair of mobile devices, there's e.g. Louis Rossmann (Macbooks & life advice) or Hugh Jeffreys (phone repair). Musical instruments - Markus Fuller. Old radios and TVs - shango066. Misc. amplifiers / DIY - JohnAudioTech. Teardown of mains-powered electronics - bigclivedotcom (regarding dodgy electronics, also see DiodeGoneWild). I also like South Main Auto Repair (vehicle electrical troubleshooting), My Mate Vince (amateur repair enthusiast who'll take on toys, consumer electronics, watches, whatever) and Adamant IT (from building and fixing PCs to board repair). That'll do for now.

The BTL-SE switch is the switch labeled Mono / Stereo on the back of your amplifier.
SE = single-ended. Load is attached between amplifier output and amplifier ground.
BTL = Bridge-Tied Load. Load is attached between two amplifiers, one of which is driven with an inverted signal. BTL delivers twice the power into twice the load impedance. That's how 2x 125 W into 4 ohms becomes 1x 250 W into 8 ohms. The load is basically split in the middle.
BTL is a technique commonly employed when you are limited by voltage. It's pretty much standard in power amplifier ICs for car radios, for example (a nominal 13.8 V isn't that much!).

The protection relay, also indicated in the amplifier block diagram on manual p.12, is an electromechanical switch that connects the amplifier to the output terminals if everything is normal (that's the click your should be hearing upon power-up). If an abnormal condition is detected, relay drive is disabled and the output is disconnected. This amplifier's protection circuitry checks for not only excessive DC, but also cuts out when overheating is detected.
The contacts in these relays can tarnish (they're usually Ag-Ni plated, and silver doesn't appreciate sulphur compounds in the air), and if they're opened or closed while substantial voltage is present, arcing can destroy part of the contact surface. While longevity may vary greatly depending on parts quality and operating environment, they are more or less to be considered consumables - mere tarnishing can be fixed with contact cleaner and some elbow grease, but severely burned contacts mean you need a new one. As it's just as much work either way, often they'll be replaced no matter what - generally a new one can at least be made to fit without too much hassle, only a few old types are problematic.
Diagnosing a bad relay usually involves briefly cranking up the volume to see whether that motivates it, or tapping the suspect with a screwdriver handle while listening for changes in output.

The so-called Zobel network consists of a resistor and capacitor connected in series across the amplifier output. In a nutshell, it improves the amplifier's stability (resistance to oscillation), which is always a concern once negative feedback is applied - at some frequency it invariably tends to become positive feedback. The Zobel allows for better robustness when faced with capacitive loading and for generally higher levels of negative feedback, improving distortion. Like Bruno Putzeys says - there is no thing such as too much negative feedback, the crux is finding out how to apply all of it.
It turns out that the speaker wasnt toasted at all.
:D

Just as I suspected, really. So now the question is, why won't your amplifier say anything? Does it turn on and click? If so, check the mono/stereo switch and relay as stated (try some percussive maintenance on the case). Hold your ear to the speaker and listen for any hiss coming out - perhaps the signal gets lost somwhere in the input stage.

It can't hurt to double-check your wiring either - make sure that enough of the insulation has been stripped at both ends to make good contact, and the strands should also be twisted a bit to avoid any loose ones possibly shorting out.
 
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The amplifier could deliver this much power if asked to, but that doesn't mean it's doing that all the time. It's just like a power supply in that regard. That will output a (largely) constant voltage, and output power will depend on what kind of a load you're attaching.
Let's say the load is a resistor. Then Ohm's Law tells us that
R = V * I or
I = V / R.
So the current flowing is determined by the ratio of voltage and resistance.

The power dissipated in a resistor is
P = V * I
With the above, this becomes
P = V * V / R = V² / R

So if you see 20 mV of DC at the output and you've got a 7 ohm resistor (speaker voice coil) attached to it, a grand total of 57 microwatts (µW) is going to be dissipated in said resistor.

An amplifier just provides a certain amount of voltage gain, i.e. it multiplies its input voltage by a certain factor. Its circuitry provides enough output current to back that up into typical load impedances. If you multiply a whole lotta nothing by a constant factor, it's still a whole lotta nothing.

According to P2080 specs, that constant factor (voltage gain) is 26.3 dB at full input volume. You have hopefully come across the unit decibel before (1 dB = 1/10 Bel, remember that Alexander Graham chap with the telephone?), the logarithmic measure that makes large ratios that much easier to handle. In linear terms, that's a factor of 20.65.
According to the P2080's block diagram (gotta love these old Yamaha manuals!), gain should actually double in mono (BTL) mode, so it would be approx. 41.3 or 32.32 dB (= 26.3 dB + 6.02 dB).
A factor of 2 is 6 dB when we're talking voltage or 3 dB in terms of power, that's a good one to remember. Another is a factor of 10: 20 dB (voltage) or 10 dB (power). Why they're different? Actually, these are the same dBs either way. But remember P = V² / R above? If R is kept constant, power increases with the square of voltage. So twice the voltage = 4 times the power, or twice the power = voltage times the square root of 2. In the world of logarithms, the square relation becomes a factor of 2.

Properly understanding a lot of things in electronics does not come without at least some of that dreaded maff, I'm afraid.

Yes, my friend. I cant keep being ignorant like this anymore, I want to follow this stuff and I've started getting my math together from the fundamentals today, it's actually pretty fun and liberating.


Looks alright to me. That said, this little 25 W speaker needs a 250 W BTL output about as much as a hole in the head (or diaphragm, for that matter ;)). You're just increasingly likely to encounter audible hiss. Connect it to Channel A and be done with it, a nominal 80 Wpc is still plenty. .

Do you mean 250W BTL meaning "Bridge-Tied Load"? i.e.: 250W in bridge/mono mode is overkill for this speaker, right? :facepalm: Sorry, I'm a non-native English speaker.
Then, connect it to channel A leaving the amp in stereo mode, right?


Rod Eliott's pages
diyAudio forum (power amplifier stuff would generally go in Solid State)
Douglas Self: Audio Power Amplifier Design Handbook
Bob Cordell: Designing Audio Power Amplifiers

I could go through my YT subs for electronic troubleshooting related channels. Off the top of my head, there'd be:
12voltvids (consumer TV & audio repair)
The Guitologist (guitars, guitar amps & misc. - also see Uncle Doug for vintage amps)
More towards the realm of microsoldering and board repair of mobile devices, there's e.g. Louis Rossmann (Macbooks & life advice) or Hugh Jeffreys (phone repair). Musical instruments - Markus Fuller. Old radios and TVs - shango066. Misc. amplifiers / DIY - JohnAudioTech. Teardown of mains-powered electronics - bigclivedotcom (regarding dodgy electronics, also see DiodeGoneWild). I also like South Main Auto Repair (vehicle electrical troubleshooting), My Mate Vince (amateur repair enthusiast who'll take on toys, consumer electronics, watches, whatever) and Adamant IT (from building and fixing PCs to board repair). That'll do for now.

Lots of materials. That's terrific!
I've been getting the very basic fundamentals so far from this PDF: Lessons In Electric Circuits, Volume I – DC by Tony R. Kuphaldt.


Diagnosing a bad relay usually involves briefly cranking up the volume to see whether that motivates it, or tapping the suspect with a screwdriver handle while listening for changes in output.

I need to see someone doing this to have a better picture, as I'm still in the process of understanding the above explanations you wrote about power.
At least for now, while reading the wiring diagram I opened the amp to see how the two relays look like for the first time, with each having 5 soldered points it seems..


Just as I suspected, really. So now the question is, why won't your amplifier say anything? Does it turn on and click? If so, check the mono/stereo switch and relay as stated (try some percussive maintenance on the case). Hold your ear to the speaker and listen for any hiss coming out - perhaps the signal gets lost somwhere in the input stage.

It can't hurt to double-check your wiring either - make sure that enough of the insulation has been stripped at both ends to make good contact, and the strands should also be twisted a bit to avoid any loose ones possibly shorting out.

I'm returning this amp as it has warranty.
As for the wires, I removed about 15mm of insulation and twisted them.
I got a very thick gauge though, 3.5mm. Would that be a problem?

I'm thinking about getting the Topping PA3 for the Auratone. Isn't that better?

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain all this stuff... Really.
 
Nevermind my friends. I've just blew my brand new auratone now.

Well done. :)

Consider yourself lucky and never buy another. Absolutely horrible things and well deserved of the Horror-Tone nickname.
 
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