Amp/Speaker Matching

[MarkWinston]

I heard some say 'warm sounding speakers with warm sounding amps', others have said 'warm sounding speakers with a bright sounding amps'. Now I know the debate about how all good amps should sound the same under clipping levels but it is just not the case with more budget friendly integrated amps that have their own signature sound 'set' into their pre section. Now which of the statement is true? Match warm with warm or strike a balance and counter a warm speaker with a brighter sounding amp? Maybe both are true? Of course I personally prefer a neutral speaker and accurate sounding amp. I expect a lot of 'ifs', 'depends' and exceptions so do state your case below.

 

[sergeauckland]

ALL amplifiers worthy of being used for HiFi will not have a 'signature sound'. They will all have a flat frequency response and low distortion. Some valve amplifiers don't have a flat frequency response and low distortion, but then they aren't HiFi amplifiers, but effects boxes. Some, of course, like the effect, but it's not HiFi, as in High Fidelity to the source.

Consequently, all that matters is the sound of the loudspeakers, none of which are truly transparent, although the better ones come close. In which case, find whichever loudspeakers suit you, then match them with an amplifier of sufficient power for your needs and with the switching and control facilities you need. There's nothing else that needs doing.

S.

 

[Koeitje]

The only matching you need is seeing if the amplifier can drive the load you want to put on it.

 

[DanielT]

One thing I have wondered is why so many people love old vintage receivers. Apart from the look (there are a lot of people who love that classic vintage look and care less about the sound) so many of these old receivers have a very low damping factor.

Could it be so, observe a speculation on my part now, I have no facts to support this, that this low damping factor leads to a more indistinct, "spongy" rumbling base and that is what is perceived as warm sounding amps? When it is obscure and unclear compared to precise and good linear amplified signal without distortion? If thats the case is it is probably mostly a matter of taste and liking.

A bit like looking at a non-sharp old picture compared to a new sharp one,or?

But if you "get used" to the modern picture , you probably do not want to go back to the old. A guess on my part.This was actually up for discussion a number of years ago. Do you remember when LED TVs arrived? There was initially, sometimes, talk of the all-too-sharp image. Nobody talks about that anymore.

 

[sergeauckland]

One thing I have wondered is why so many people love old vintage receivers. Apart from the look (there are a lot of people who love that classic vintage look and care less about the sound) so many of these old receivers have a very low damping factor.

Could it be so, observe a speculation on my part now, I have no facts to support this, that this low damping factor leads to a more indistinct, "spongy" rumbling base and that is what is perceived as warm sounding amps? When it is obscure and unclear compared to precise and good linear amplified signal without distortion? If thats the case is it is probably mostly a matter of taste and liking.

A bit like looking at a non-sharp old picture compared to a new sharp one,or?

But if you "get used" to the modern picture , you probably do not want to go back to the old. A guess on my part.This was actually up for discussion a number of years ago. Do you remember when LED TVs arrived? There was initially, sometimes, talk of the all-too-sharp image. Nobody talks about that anymore.

Damping factor, like many other parameters like harmonic distortion, is as much a marketing number than a technical one that matters. Old receivers with Solid State amplification don't have low damping factors, as anything better than 20 is good enough, and more than 50 totally irrelevant to audible performance. Some valved receivers or amplifiers might have a damping factor as low as 10, and that begins to impact the frequency response of the loudspeaker, as damping factor is just another way of specifying the output impedance.

A few loudspeakers like the original Quad Electrostatic from 1957, and anecdotally, Tannoy Dual Concentrics designed even earlier, were designed for the amplifiers of their era, and prefer a slightly higher output impedance (i.e. lower Damping Factor), easily achieved with a modern amplifier just by inserting a low value (around 0.3ohms) resistance in series with the loudspeaker.

S.

 

[DanielT]

Damping factor, like many other parameters like harmonic distortion, is as much a marketing number than a technical one that matters. Old receivers with Solid State amplification don't have low damping factors, as anything better than 20 is good enough, and more than 50 totally irrelevant to audible performance. Some valved receivers or amplifiers might have a damping factor as low as 10, and that begins to impact the frequency response of the loudspeaker, as damping factor is just another way of specifying the output impedance.

A few loudspeakers like the original Quad Electrostatic from 1957, and anecdotally, Tannoy Dual Concentrics designed even earlier, were designed for the amplifiers of their era, and prefer a slightly higher output impedance (i.e. lower Damping Factor), easily achieved with a modern amplifier just by inserting a low value (around 0.3ohms) resistance in series with the loudspeaker.

S.

I am an amateur when it comes to amplifier technology and construction of the same so tanks for the clarification.

I read somewhere that it would be high damping factor so did not compromising the sound. They outbid each other and ended up well over 1000 in the end. Very high number and I never really understood why they came to that.

 

[Goodman]

I heard some say 'warm sounding speakers with warm sounding amps', others have said 'warm sounding speakers with a bright sounding amps'. Now I know the debate about how all good amps should sound the same under clipping levels but it is just not the case with more budget friendly integrated amps that have their own signature sound 'set' into their pre section. Now which of the statement is true? Match warm with warm or strike a balance and counter a warm speaker with a brighter sounding amp? Maybe both are true? Of course I personally prefer a neutral speaker and accurate sounding amp. I expect a lot of 'ifs', 'depends' and exceptions so do state your case below.

The answer is, there is no answer, there are some basic clues, for the amp, the filters and finally the drivers. As an exemple I have Zu audio speakers: I had to try 15 different amps in order to get good results, a couple of amps gave me good results a low volume, but if you like concert like volume, the problem is exacerbated. Best is to see which amp the speaker manufacturer uses for his demo at audio shows.

 

[Chrispy]

I heard some say 'warm sounding speakers with warm sounding amps', others have said 'warm sounding speakers with a bright sounding amps'. Now I know the debate about how all good amps should sound the same under clipping levels but it is just not the case with more budget friendly integrated amps that have their own signature sound 'set' into their pre section. Now which of the statement is true? Match warm with warm or strike a balance and counter a warm speaker with a brighter sounding amp? Maybe both are true? Of course I personally prefer a neutral speaker and accurate sounding amp. I expect a lot of 'ifs', 'depends' and exceptions so do state your case below.

What integrated amps have you been using?

 

[restorer-john]

One thing I have wondered is why so many people love old vintage receivers. Apart from the look (there are a lot of people who love that classic vintage look and care less about the sound) so many of these old receivers have a very low damping factor.

Most of the old classic receivers/amplifiers people tend to really like, (think Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui etc) do have a very low damping factors particularly at low frequencies due to to the capacitive coupling used in the late 1960s/early 1970s. Even through the mid 70s, the low-mid end receivers still used single rail, capacitively coupled power stages. They have a harmonious realtionship with the speakers sold at the time, which were often highly efficient multiway sealed cabinet affairs with large bass drivers (up to 15"). As such, these otherwise low powered receivers punched well above their weight and offerered a very sweet sound.

It should also be considered that many of the low-mid range models were deliberately voiced to sound warm with the equivalent of a small mid bass boost and often a slight recessed mid or elevated treble.

The further you went up a given manufacturer's range, the flatter and more accurate the products became.

 

[escksu]

I heard some say 'warm sounding speakers with warm sounding amps', others have said 'warm sounding speakers with a bright sounding amps'. Now I know the debate about how all good amps should sound the same under clipping levels but it is just not the case with more budget friendly integrated amps that have their own signature sound 'set' into their pre section. Now which of the statement is true? Match warm with warm or strike a balance and counter a warm speaker with a brighter sounding amp? Maybe both are true? Of course I personally prefer a neutral speaker and accurate sounding amp. I expect a lot of 'ifs', 'depends' and exceptions so do state your case below.

I have to say you need to listen for yourself. Because what constitutes to "bright" or not is very subjective. Its also affected by the music your are listening to. Some people like it, others dont. From my understanding, most of the people here prefer gears that as neutral as possible. So, it depends alot on your personal preference.

 

[DanielT]

Most of the old classic receivers/amplifiers people tend to really like, (think Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui etc) do have a very low damping factors particularly at low frequencies due to to the capacitive coupling used in the late 1960s/early 1970s. Even through the mid 70s, the low-mid end receivers still used single rail, capacitively coupled power stages. They have a harmonious realtionship with the speakers sold at the time, which were often highly efficient multiway sealed cabinet affairs with large bass drivers (up to 15"). As such, these otherwise low powered receivers punched well above their weight and offerered a very sweet sound.

It should also be considered that many of the low-mid range models were deliberately voiced to sound warm with the equivalent of a small mid bass boost and often a slight recessed mid or elevated treble.

The further you went up a given manufacturer's range, the flatter and more accurate the products became.

There you can talk about matching amplifiers and speakers.

Hmm I wonder those who like that so-called "vintage sound" if it is now only the sound they are looking for why not as happy to keep what they have and sometimes both have new modern, neutral linear amplified sound and when they feel for it plug in an old vintage, EQ (because I came into this with vintage), see the attached picture, and create the sound they want. Then they probably also hear what fits, what they like, together with the speakers they use.

 

[Chrispy]

There you can talk about matching amplifiers and speakers.

Hmm I wonder those who like that so-called "vintage sound" if it is now only the sound they are looking for why not as happy to keep what they have and sometimes both have new modern, neutral linear amplified sound and when they feel for it plug in an old vintage, EQ (because I came into this with vintage), see the attached picture, and create the sound they want. Then they probably also hear what fits, what they like, together with the speakers they use.

Or is vintage sound just a memory of inferior sound?

 

[DanielT]

Or is vintage sound just a memory of inferior sound?

Very possible. Might even be positive memories from childhood? Parents' stereo.Maybe that vintage is boughte now since, as middle-aged they can afford what they could not buy as teenagers? Realize an old wet hifi dream.There's probably a lot of psychology rolling around here.

Or you think one step further and leave nostalgic memories as they are. Ignore buying vintage and possibly then be disappointed. Or be positively overwhelmed. What do I know. People get to like what kind of sound reproduction they want, of course.

Edit:
This summer bought a small vintage racer, Nad 3020. It was not so much a matter of realizing an old dream but but I was moe curious about how the world's best-selling amplifier could perform. So the motives for buying vintage can be many.

 

[Goodman]

Very possible. Might even be positive memories from childhood? Parents' stereo.Maybe that vintage is boughte now since, as middle-aged they can afford what they could not buy as teenagers? Realize an old wet hifi dream.There's probably a lot of psychology rolling around here.

Or you think one step further and leave nostalgic memories as they are. Ignore buying vintage and possibly then be disappointed. Or be positively overwhelmed. What do I know. People get to like what kind of sound reproduction they want, of course.

Edit:
This summer bought a small vintage racer, Nad 3020. It was not so much a matter of realizing an old dream but but I was moe curious about how the world's best-selling amplifier could perform. So the motives for buying vintage can be many.

So, How did the NAD 3020 perform; and what did you compare it to?

 

[DanielT]

So, How did the NAD 3020 perform; and what did you compare it to?

Can say this. Normally I can think that What Hifi is out cycling. Strange descriptions with their golden ears on different sound in digital cables, rca and so on (I know they have to keep the advertisers happy). In this case, I think they are absolutely right. Agree with them completely Regarding NAD 3020:

No product is perfect, and expecting that from a 40-year-old budget design is not realistic. However, we are utterly charmed by the 3020. Our test room is packed with excellent, far more capable alternatives, yet we carry on listening to the little NAD way longer than we need to.

We love its enthusiasm and the way it encourages us to play just one more track. That’s the true mark of greatness, and make no mistake, the NAD 3020 belongs up there with the very best the industry has ever made.

https://www.whathifi.com/features/that-was-then-nad-3020

Kind of like you just want to play more and more with it. I use it together with a pair of JPW P1 speakers in my little summer cottage and I will keep that combination there. A cool little racer.

I currently have no top notch to compare with. Compared NAD 3020 with my Aiyiama TPA A07 3255. New vs old. I like the NAD better. That together with the mentioned speakers. Other circumstances, other speakers so maybe Aiyiaman is the one I would prefer then.

Edit. Tips for those who are considering buying a NAD 3020. Be aware that such an old one, which has probably been used a lot, may need to be recapped. Also check that the transformer does not hum too much.Maybe separate woofer with separate base amplifier plus hp-lp filter to relieve NAD 3020 .. A little overkill for a secondary solution ... or not.

 

[Deleted member 46664]

Most amplifiers these days are "audibly transparent" ... high damping factor, flat frequency response, low distortion, etc.

So the best rule of thumb is to buy a decent amplifier ... then just pick the speakers you like.