Amp Recommendations. Revel F228BE

[Grumpy514]

Long story short, I'm getting back into Home Audio and recently went to a local store to try to find a pair of B&W Floor standers to match my speakers from 15 years ago, (B&W 705s & HTM7).... I ended up walking out with a pair of Revel F228BEs, they absolutely blew me away and the price was just right.

I currently ONLY have a Denon AVR-X4700H powering them. I plan on using the amp right now to bi-amp the setup until I get a proper stand alone DAC. I have an older SVS PB-12NSD subwoofer (plan on getting a 2nd at some point)

I've been researching for the last few days on different setups and believe I want go with a power amp over a integrated amp, with plans to eventually get a pre-amp/DAC for just stereo listening. I do plan on getting the matching center C426BE which I was not sure if a Monoblock would be best for that one or not? Down the line I will end up getting 2 Revel (non-beryllium) rears to finish up the setup.

I really don't know if I should be looking for a dual channel for the F228BEs or looking at 3 channel amps to support the center when it comes down the line.


I've been looking at the-

March Audio P422:
https://marchaudio.com/product/p422-stereo-power-amplifier/

NAD 298:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745C298/NAD-C298.html?tp=48757

Anthem MCA 225 Gen 2:

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_973MCA2252/Anthem-MCA-225-Gen-2.html?tp=48757

Usage:

H/T will be roughly 60-70%, the rest will be for stereo listening. Tool/Pink Floyd/Dance Music/classical/ambient. I do like to listen to my music LOUD on occasion

Room Dimensions: 18'x14'x8'. Not fully enclosed, open to side room with doors. After picking up an amp to power the mains my next goal would be to do some room treatment with acoustic panels.

Sitting distance from speakers is roughly 13-14

'Budget-$2000-4000 (I know this is a large range, ideally would like to stick to lower end) "Like new" is fine also.

Thanks in advance!

 

[radix]

I have the F228be in a slightly larger room than yours. It's also open on two sides to other rooms. I use 2x AHB2 (380 wpc). Normally, my preamp is down about -30dB, but when I want to listen loudly, I can get up to maybe -12dB to -10dB. So, I don't think 380 wpc is much overpowered. If you have an enclosed room, you might need less amplification than I chose.

You should consider how loud you want to get and how much headroom you want. You can estimate this with a dB meter in your main listening position. once you have the desired SPL and headroom number, you can use various calculators to estimate your amplifier watts per channel. I used the Crown "Amplifier Power Required" (https://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/tools/calculators).

In your budget range, an NCX500 hypex should give you plenty of power in the $3000 range, for a 3-channel amp.

I do not think bi-amping or monoblocking is necessary. I use 2x AHB2 just to get the higher power output in mono mode.

Finally, while the F228be has good low-end, a good sub or two will still help. Especially for HT. Being able to position a sub separately form the speakers can help fill in the room nulls.

 

[Holmz]

….
I really don't know if I should be looking for a dual channel for the F228BEs or looking at 3 channel amps to support the center when it comes down the line.
…

A mixed 2 channel and HT can be difficult.
I would suggest you focus on the 2 channel side, as that will be the most difficult.

There are some preamps that do a pass through for the HT side.
You’ll either need to trigger the amps, or auto trigger them on.

Also if your AVP/AVR has RCAs, or XLR or both as outputs needs to be considered.
I have XLRs, and the bypass on the preamp is XLRs only, so that amp(s) need to be XLRs.
Or the preamp needs to be turned on for the HT to work.

You probably want to figure out some of this before getting the amp(s).

…
I currently ONLY have a Denon AVR-X4700H powering them. I plan on using the amp right now to bi-amp the setup until I get a proper stand alone DAC.
…!

The good news is ^that the Denon^ should work fine while you come up with a plan.

 

[Moonbase]

Agree with above, it would make sense to finish the avr system you have started building bore improving stereo. The Denon 4700 is a decent avr and would sort a centre, next on the list being a sub.
The revel a super speakers and deserve a power amp at some point. Nord do great power amplifiers build on purifi

 

[Grumpy514]

I have the F228be in a slightly larger room than yours. It's also open on two sides to other rooms. I use 2x AHB2 (380 wpc). Normally, my preamp is down about -30dB, but when I want to listen loudly, I can get up to maybe -12dB to -10dB. So, I don't think 380 wpc is much overpowered. If you have an enclosed room, you might need less amplification than I chose.

You should consider how loud you want to get and how much headroom you want. You can estimate this with a dB meter in your main listening position. once you have the desired SPL and headroom number, you can use various calculators to estimate your amplifier watts per channel. I used the Crown "Amplifier Power Required" (https://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/tools/calculators).

In your budget range, an NCX500 hypex should give you plenty of power in the $3000 range, for a 3-channel amp.

I do not think bi-amping or monoblocking is necessary. I use 2x AHB2 just to get the higher power output in mono mode.

Finally, while the F228be has good low-end, a good sub or two will still help. Especially for HT. Being able to position a sub separately form the speakers can help fill in the room nulls.

Thank you for your response. I updated my post to give a little more information. My room does in fact have a side room off it as well (office with double wooden French doors) I also have an SVS PB12-NSD for subwoofer & plan on getting a 2nd one down the line.

Per your recommendations.

Would something like this suffice?

Apollon Hypex NCOREx NCx500 Multichannel Amplifier (3-5 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

apollonaudio.com

On another forum, somebody had recommended these, one for the mains & the other for the center.

One moment, please...

&

One moment, please...

Seems a touch overkill.....but I am new to all this.

 

[Grumpy514]

A mixed 2 channel and HT can be difficult.
I would suggest you focus on the 2 channel side, as that will be the most difficult.

There are some preamps that do a pass through for the HT side.
You’ll either need to trigger the amps, or auto trigger them on.

Also if your AVP/AVR has RCAs, or XLR or both as outputs needs to be considered.
I have XLRs, and the bypass on the preamp is XLRs only, so that amp(s) need to be XLRs.
Or the preamp needs to be turned on for the HT to work.

You probably want to figure out some of this before getting the amp(s).




The good news is ^that the Denon^ should work fine while you come up with a plan.

Thank you. I was a bit worried that trying to do both would in some way conflict with each other. I auditioned stereo only of course when going to look at the speakers. I knew going into it that the speakers would sound very different at home than they would in store, as far as room acoustics/treatment go & the fact that they had about $25,000+in a equipment pushing them.

What would it cost realistically to get 80-90% of what I heard in the showroom at home? This is probably a stupid question but curious. I believe their equipment when demoing these were

McIntosh MC611 Monoblock x2​

McIntosh MPC1500 Power Controller​

McIntosh MEN220 Room Correction System​

& some fancy streamer that was around $8-9000

 

[Beave]

From Amir's Klippel NFS measurements of the Revel F228Be
(here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-f228be-review-speaker.23659/)
and JA's measurments on Stereophile
(here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-performa-f228be-loudspeaker-measurements)

You can see that sensitivity is about 89dB/2.83v/1m, and impedance is moderate, not super easy but not difficult either.

So I think your Denon AVR-X4700 can power them fine unless you are blasting them in a large room.

I also should suggest that bi-amping is an unecessary complication for you. Skip it.

If, after time, you find that you are blasting them and they sound strained/harsh at high levels, a more powerful external amp might be worthwhile down the line.

But I'd suggest it should be your last thing to buy, not your first.

As for the sound in the showroom, the room itself and the McIntosh room correction system probably played a larger role than the Mc amps or the expensive streamer.

 

[Grumpy514]

From Amir's Klippel NFS measurements of the Revel F228Be
(here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-f228be-review-speaker.23659/)
and JA's measurments on Stereophile
(here: https://www.stereophile.com/content/revel-performa-f228be-loudspeaker-measurements)

You can see that sensitivity is about 89dB/2.83v/1m, and impedance is moderate, not super easy but not difficult either.

So I think your Denon AVR-X4700 can power them fine unless you are blasting them in a large room.

I also should suggest that bi-amping is an unecessary complication for you. Skip it.

If, after time, you find that you are blasting them and they sound strained/harsh at high levels, a more powerful external amp might be worthwhile down the line.

But I'd suggest it should be your last thing to buy, not your first.

As for the sound in the showroom, the room itself and the McIntosh room correction system probably played a larger role than the Mc amps or the expensive streamer.

Thank you so much for the input. I've only had them setup for a day and was playing around with different movies/audio clips. On the Denon receiver I have the volume setup to go from 0-100 (guessing this is typical) I had them playing various songs around 55-60 volume level, since the AVR is only capable of 135wpc am I able to crank it to 70-80 safely? At this volume it is LOUD I imagine but I do enjoy music at these levels depending on the song playing. I don't have a dB meter so I can't exactly say how loud, need to invest in one at some point.

Perhaps I'm not giving them enough juice (cranking the volume up more) but I did feel the imaging was quite a large difference in the setup room at the store than at home, I've read a LOT of these could be solely from the room setup it self. Researching proper acoustic panels and placement will be another endeavor it appears. To be fair the way I have the room setup right now is very sub-optimal with things scattered about from the excitement of me getting the speakers setup. Tables need to be moved out & I have a subwoofer sitting about 4ft in front of the speakers against the wall (Would it be best to tuck this behind my couch rear of the front stage so there is no issues with dispersion?

Honestly my biggest worry was causing damage to them from being "under-powered" and turning the volume up too much. Perhaps I'm really over-reacting with that.

 

[Jim Taylor]

As for the sound in the showroom, the room itself and the McIntosh room correction system probably played a larger role than the Mc amps or the expensive streamer.

^^^ This! ^^^^

Jim

 

[amper42]

I have the Revel F228Be powered with a Buckeye NC502MP right now. It sounds fantastic with the RME ADI-2 DAC FS. There is no need to bi-amp. Just connect the banana plugs to the top binding posts on the F228Be and you are good to go. I have also used it with the Boxem 4215/2 and it's a great match as well. Don't over think it. Just use a good stereo amp with Revel F228Be and it will knock your socks off!

 

[Chrispy]

I'd concentrate on setup/room for now and just use the avr, adding an external power amp is relatively easy....if you really need it for your use. The idea of integrated amp on ht bypass I just find silly.

 

[jcarys]

So from your last post I think it's easier to set your priorities - #1 get a db meter or a free phone app to measure how loud you truly are playing and you can associate it with the Denon reading, #2 clean your room up and get your subwoofer back in an optimal position, #3 run Audyssey and tweak as needed. You don't need to worry about being either under or over-powered with your Denon AVR. The volume control goes from 0-100, meaning it was engineered by professionals to play from 0-100 for many years to come. When all of this is done, if you still feel like you need an amp, then get any Hypex or Purifi model that meets your needs and budget.

 

[Matias]

This:

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Apollon NCx500ST stereo class D amplifier based on Hypex NCOREx NCx500 modules. It was kindly drop shipped from the member and costs 1,090.00€ (US $1,168) with standard opamp. While the case is stamped aluminum, it is a heavily customized one...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Or their dual mono offering.

One moment, please...

Just don't mind that it takes several weeks to ship.

 

[radix]

Thank you. I was a bit worried that trying to do both would in some way conflict with each other. I auditioned stereo only of course when going to look at the speakers. I knew going into it that the speakers would sound very different at home than they would in store, as far as room acoustics/treatment go & the fact that they had about $25,000+in a equipment pushing them.

What would it cost realistically to get 80-90% of what I heard in the showroom at home? This is probably a stupid question but curious. I believe their equipment when demoing these were

McIntosh MC611 Monoblock x2​

McIntosh MPC1500 Power Controller​

McIntosh MEN220 Room Correction System​

& some fancy streamer that was around $8-9000

Don't worry about the power controller.

Your Denon AVR has DSP correction. You could get an upgraded AVR with DIRAC, which might be a touch better than Audyssey.

Those Apollon or similar Hypex (or similar) amps will be great.

When you listen to something in a high-end listening room, the big difference from your typical home is all the surface treatments. Even if you took those McIntosh parts home, it would not sound the same because you're putting it in a room that does not cancel reflections. a DSP can help improve the sound in an untreated room, but physical treatments still make a big difference. Even some simple treatments help (rug on the floor, absorbent items behind the listeners, etc.).

 

[Holmz]

Thank you. I was a bit worried that trying to do both would in some way conflict with each other.

IME it is the other way around.
- The 2 channel needs to sound good. And the HT part is mostly just filling in the visual part and seems to be less important sound wise.
- But it still needs to play through part of the 2-channel.

I auditioned stereo only of course when going to look at the speakers. I knew going into it that the speakers would sound very different at home than they would in store, as far as room acoustics/treatment go & the fact that they had about $25,000+in a equipment pushing them.

The March audio amp I heard at Alan’s a couple of years ago sounded good.
I certainly makes a lot of sense if are in the antipodes, and the thing is in a nice case.

However that Denon should hold you over while you are figuring out what to do.
The March would seem to fit the bill, but you also need the AVR/AVP sorted out, and make sure that all the things plug into each other.
I doubt that the heavens will open up just by changing the Denon ou… And if you are listening to streaming, then maybe you do not need a preamp if the Denon does that?
I have a TT as well, so that adds another layer of complexity… without it, then it gets easier.

What would it cost realistically to get 80-90% of what I heard in the showroom at home? This is probably a stupid question but curious. I believe their equipment when demoing these were

McIntosh MC611 Monoblock x2​

I would be working on sub woofer integration first.

McIntosh MPC1500 Power Controller​

What is the reasoning for needing ^this^?

McIntosh MEN220 Room Correction System​

There is a recent post about the Lyngdorf MP40 or 60… I forget which.
IMO That would be something to peruse.

I think that you potentially get more from room correction than with the amps.
Certainly when the thing gets loud, then the amps become important, but without knowing your SPL levels… how can we really say a lot?

& some fancy streamer that was around $8-9000

I am running an RME, so it is a bit less $.


This advise seems sage:

So from your last post I think it's easier to set your priorities - #1 get a db meter or a free phone app to measure how loud you truly are playing and you can associate it with the Denon reading, #2 clean your room up and get your subwoofer back in an optimal position, #3 run Audyssey and tweak as needed. You don't need to worry about being either under or over-powered with your Denon AVR. The volume control goes from 0-100, meaning it was engineered by professionals to play from 0-100 for many years to come. <4> When all of this is done, if you still feel like you need an amp, then get any Hypex or Purifi model that meets your needs and budget.

We differ somewhat at point #4.

 

[Grumpy514]

IME it is the other way around.
- The 2 channel needs to sound good. And the HT part is mostly just filling in the visual part and seems to be less important sound wise.
- But it still needs to play through part of the 2-channel.



The March audio amp I heard at Alan’s a couple of years ago sounded good.
I certainly makes a lot of sense if are in the antipodes, and the thing is in a nice case.

However that Denon should hold you over while you are figuring out what to do.
The March would seem to fit the bill, but you also need the AVR/AVP sorted out, and make sure that all the things plug into each other.
I doubt that the heavens will open up just by changing the Denon ou… And if you are listening to streaming, then maybe you do not need a preamp if the Denon does that?
I have a TT as well, so that adds another layer of complexity… without it, then it gets easier.



I would be working on sub woofer integration first.



What is the reasoning for needing ^this^?


There is a recent post about the Lyngdorf MP40 or 60… I forget which.
IMO That would be something to peruse.

I think that you potentially get more from room correction than with the amps.
Certainly when the thing gets loud, then the amps become important, but without knowing your SPL levels… how can we really say a lot?



I am running an RME, so it is a bit less $.


This advise seems sage:

We differ somewhat at point #4.

In process of moving things out and cleaning up the clutter right now to get speakers exactly where I think they should be to give a better listen.

Right now I do have an SVS PB12-NSD, do you believe this to be effecient? I was going to look into possibly adding a second subwoofer for a different part of the room. I'm going to give this "Sub Crawl" thing a try to see if I can hear any noticeable difference on the placement of it.

In regards to the McIntosh gear, I was just mentioning what they had to play the speakers on, I know I personally don't "Need" any of that gear.

By room corrections, do you mean placement of speakers and object in room as well as acoustic panels for the bare walls? The floor is carpeted.

 

[Chrispy]

So from your last post I think it's easier to set your priorities - #1 get a db meter or a free phone app to measure how loud you truly are playing and you can associate it with the Denon reading, #2 clean your room up and get your subwoofer back in an optimal position, #3 run Audyssey and tweak as needed. You don't need to worry about being either under or over-powered with your Denon AVR. The volume control goes from 0-100, meaning it was engineered by professionals to play from 0-100 for many years to come. When all of this is done, if you still feel like you need an amp, then get any Hypex or Purifi model that meets your needs and budget.

The volume control going from 0-100 on the absolute scale isn't particularly meaningful. Personally I like the also provided relative scale (to reference level). 80-82 on the absolute scale is generally reference level ("0" on the relative scale) and probably best to keep max to that point rather than expecting much above.

 

[Chrispy]

IME it is the other way around.
- The 2 channel needs to sound good. And the HT part is mostly just filling in the visual part and seems to be less important sound wise.
- But it still needs to play through part of the 2-channel.



The March audio amp I heard at Alan’s a couple of years ago sounded good.
I certainly makes a lot of sense if are in the antipodes, and the thing is in a nice case.

However that Denon should hold you over while you are figuring out what to do.
The March would seem to fit the bill, but you also need the AVR/AVP sorted out, and make sure that all the things plug into each other.
I doubt that the heavens will open up just by changing the Denon ou… And if you are listening to streaming, then maybe you do not need a preamp if the Denon does that?
I have a TT as well, so that adds another layer of complexity… without it, then it gets easier.



I would be working on sub woofer integration first.



What is the reasoning for needing ^this^?


There is a recent post about the Lyngdorf MP40 or 60… I forget which.
IMO That would be something to peruse.

I think that you potentially get more from room correction than with the amps.
Certainly when the thing gets loud, then the amps become important, but without knowing your SPL levels… how can we really say a lot?



I am running an RME, so it is a bit less $.


This advise seems sage:

We differ somewhat at point #4.

What makes 2ch sound particularly good?

 

[Holmz]

What makes 2ch sound particularly good?

Sorry - it is more like HT is less demanding.
You/we have the visuals that make it harder to simultaneously be processing the audio track.

In addition, people make a fuss over the center channel… but for 1 or 2 people, a phantom center is really pretty good.
So IMO, it is better to spend up on the L and R front speakers.

What makes 2ch sound particularly good?

^That^ is a loaded question…

1. For some it is imaging and sound stage.
2. For others it is wide dispersion.
3. For some it is low distortion.
4. And others have transcient response as important.

What is it to you?
(I rate them as 4, 3,1 )

IMO - the Revel’s should be a fine start.
The power conditioner, etc are not likely to make as big of a difference as some room correction embedded in the AVR/AVP..

 

[Chrispy]

Sorry - it is more like HT is less demanding.
You/we have the visuals that make it harder to simultaneously be processing the audio track.

In addition, people make a fuss over the center channel… but for 1 or 2 people, a phantom center is really pretty good.
So IMO, it is better to spend up on the L and R front speakers.


^That^ is a loaded question…

1. For some it is imaging and sound stage.
2. For others it is wide dispersion.
3. For some it is low distortion.
4. And others have transcient response as important.

What is it to you?
(I rate them as 4, 3,1 )

IMO - the Revel’s should be a fine start.
The power conditioner, etc are not likely to make as big of a difference as some room correction embedded in the AVR/AVP..

It was a loaded statement to begin with. One I haven't found particularly with merit. I think HT is more demanding than simple 2ch

I demand a lot of any audio, whether it's relatively limited 2ch or full blown surround. I like a system to handle both well. 2ch is relatively easy and never found an integrated amp to be much beyond a receiver without a tuner, and preferred separates.

Power conditioner means pretty much nothing and sometimes is a bottleneck.