AMP for Hifiman He6SE (preferably DAC+AMP like the DX7 Pro)

[DouglasteR]

Hi again friends,

After some researching forums like ours, i ended buying "my" audio end game combo, both for music listening as well as gaming.

Everything was nice, i've never had such refined and powerfull audio, BUT, as always, i crave more.

It seems like, after many months of use, the volume isn't going high as i would like. I can agree that my config in Peace is pushing the DX7 Pro beyond it's capabilities, but it does sound good, and anything above -11.5 instant clippes (like the Killswitch engage My Curse as show in the foobar):

So i wonder if there is something more powerfull than the DX7 Pro within it's price range or should i combo it with another amp !?

My setup is currently:

PC with W10
PC to DX7 Pro thru USB (gain in high)
DX7 Pro to Hifiman He6SE with custom made balanced XLR cable.
APO Equalizer and Peace installed with custom EQ gathered from our members and friends scattered thru the Internet.

Any help is highly appreciated ! Thanks !

 

[staticV3]

Unfortunately there's not enough data for me to overlay the DX7 Pro as well, so the only takeaway is that out of Topping's current AIO lineup, the DX7Pro+ will drive the HE6se the loudest.

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Honestly, with -12db of gain, you could legitimately consider getting a desktop amp like the LA90 and using an adapter to drive your headphones.

 

[oleg87]

If you want a lot more headroom without getting too spendy, a speaker amp with an adapter may be a good option. Even a fairly powerful headphone amp that delivers ~4W/channel into 50ohms is only going to be about 4dB louder, not a world of difference.

 

[MRC01]

Context according to Amir's reviews of the HE6SE and the DX7Pro:

The HD6SE is either 50 or 64 ohm impedance. At 50 ohms the DX7Pro maxes out at 7.6 V. 1.37 V drives the HE6SE to 94 dB SPL, so 7.6 V is 14.9 dB louder which is 108.9 dB SPL. That's extremely loud, plenty enough to damage hearing. But you have -11.5 dB in front so that's 97.4 dB. Still very loud, but if you listen to highly dynamic music where average levels are 30 dB quieter than peak, not so bad.

If you want a simple one-box solution, the Schiit Jotunheim can deliver 14.15 V clean into 50 ohms, which about 5.4 dB louder making 102.8 dB with the HE6SE and your pre-gain cut. Amir's review showed its DAC module wasn't so great, but Schiit has a new DAC module based on the ESS9028 that is much better and cleaner.

All this goes with the proviso to take care before upgrading the amp because the headphones don't get loud enough. Your DX7Pro can already drive the HE6SE loud enough to damage hearing.

 

[DouglasteR]

View attachment 267251
Unfortunately there's not enough data for me to overlay the DX7 Pro as well, so the only takeaway is that out of Topping's current AIO lineup, the DX7Pro+ will drive the HE6se the loudest.

Bummer , The DX7 PRo+ is stronger than my DX7 Pro, so i'm even lower

Honestly, with -12db of gain, you could legitimately consider getting a desktop amp like the LA90 and using an adapter to drive your headphones.

But would it be enough ? I'm aiming at ~110 SPL.

If you want a lot more headroom without getting too spendy, a speaker amp with an adapter may be a good option. Even a fairly powerful headphone amp that delivers ~4W/channel into 50ohms is only going to be about 4dB louder, not a world of difference.

Could you please elaborate ? The adapter would protect my HP from the excess power ?

Context according to Amir's reviews of the HE6SE and the DX7Pro:

The HD6SE is either 50 or 64 ohm impedance. At 50 ohms the DX7Pro maxes out at 7.6 V. 1.37 V drives the HE6SE to 94 dB SPL, so 7.6 V is 14.9 dB louder which is 108.9 dB SPL. That's extremely loud, plenty enough to damage hearing. But you have -11.5 dB in front so that's 97.4 dB. Still very loud, but if you listen to highly dynamic music where average levels are 30 dB quieter than peak, not so bad.

If you want a simple one-box solution, the Schiit Jotunheim can deliver 14.15 V clean into 50 ohms, which about 5.4 dB louder making 102.8 dB with the HE6SE and your pre-gain cut. Amir's review showed its DAC module wasn't so great, but Schiit has a new DAC module based on the ESS9028 that is much better and cleaner.

All this goes with the proviso to take care before upgrading the amp because the headphones don't get loud enough. Your DX7Pro can already drive the HE6SE loud enough to damage hearing.

Yep, that's exactly my problem. Some music sounds loud, other not so much and some even quieter. Could i stack my DX7 Pro with them ?

Thanks for the help guys !

 

[okok]

it's a scam, to make you think it's hard to drive

 

[MRC01]

Another option: do you really need +10.5 dB @ 52 Hz? Amir's measurements suggest more like +6 dB to match Harman, and even Harman sounds like too much bass for my taste in headphones.

You also have mid-high frequency boosts, so if you reduce those too, it may not sound brighter overall.

If you adjust your EQ to use no more than +6 dB, you'll gain 4.5 dB which is a LOT.

The point is that with the DX7Pro it looks like you are running out of gain, not necessarily out of power.

 

[muslhead]

violectric v590 and v380 for a dac amp combo

 

[DouglasteR]

it's a scam, to make you think it's hard to drive

Crossed my mind, not gonna lie. But the EQ does makes a huge difference.

Another option: do you really need +10.5 dB @ 52 Hz? Amir's measurements suggest more like +6 dB to match Harman, and even Harman sounds like too much bass for my taste in headphones.

You also have mid-high frequency boosts, so if you reduce those too, it may not sound brighter overall.

If you adjust your EQ to use no more than +6 dB, you'll gain 4.5 dB which is a LOT.

The point is that with the DX7Pro it looks like you are running out of gain, not necessarily out of power.

I see.

I'll apply those settings and make a listening session to feel the change.

I'll report back asap.

Thanks !

 

[DouglasteR]

violectric v590 and v380 for a dac amp combo

The V590 alone cost almost all my setup including my PC :

 

[jae]

Honestly, with -12db of gain, you could legitimately consider getting a desktop amp like the LA90 and using an adapter to drive your headphones.

Probably better to get new headphones at this point.

It seems like, after many months of use, the volume isn't going high as i would like

Be careful with loud volumes if you're noticing this. It would be prudent to get a hearing test at an audiologist if you value your hearing.


If you changed or updated foobar version in the last couple of months, try updating to a more recent version. There was a bug that was interfering with volume loudness where it could have been outputting less than 0 dbfs even when the windows slider was on max.

 

[jae]

Give this one a try? Can try to make filter 7 a few dB lower if it is still clipping and lower the preamp by a proportional amount

Preamp: -8.1 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 33 Hz Gain 6.5 dB Q 0.500
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 40 Hz Gain -0.6 dB Q 2.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 94 Hz Gain 1.0 dB Q 1.200
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 220 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.200
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 810 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.900
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1400 Hz Gain 1.4 dB Q 2.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1900 Hz Gain 8.1 dB Q 1.700
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 4100 Hz Gain -6.8 dB Q 2.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 5100 Hz Gain 2.9 dB Q 2.000

 

[Jimbob54]

Yep, that's exactly my problem. Some music sounds loud, other not so much and some even quieter.

This has nothing to do with your set up. What is your usual source (local files, which streaming service)?. You likely have a source that isnt volume normalised and a range of music some of which has large dynamic range (diff between loudest and quietest with only the largest parts getting near full scale) and others low dynamic range (so everything is near the top of the scale - think modern pop music) - if you set your volume so the LDR stuff is not too loud , the quieter recorded stuff is going to be barely audible at times , so you up the volume, only to get deafened by the next LDR track that comes on.

Lots of the streaming services will have settings in their apps for loudness/ volume normalising (or maybe called levelling or replay gain). Switching that on helps to even all that out , but you may then find the overall level of your content seems reduced- requiring more juice to go real loud.

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

But would it be enough ? I'm aiming at ~110 SPL

-12dB of preamping gives an effective sensitivity of ~72dB/mW. That gives a requirement of 6.4W into 50ohm for 110dB SPL. The LA90 should be able to push close to 7W into 50ohm without clipping.

 

[staticV3]

@DouglasteR
The HE6se has 91.3dB/V sensitivity at 425Hz, but at 20-120Hz where you want to achieve 110dB SPL, the sensitivity drops to 89.6dB/V.
Ergo, to reach 110dB Peak, your Amp needs to be able to output 10.5V at 64Ω, or about 1.7W.

Since your EQ will boost bass by as many dB as your preamp will reduce volume, and music always peaks at bass frequencies, EQ On vs Off will not affect peak SPL when listening to music. So the 10.5V required is true both for bit-perfect playback w/o EQ, and for playback with EQ to Harman.

None of Topping's AIOs can achieve that 10.5V, but it's easy to do with a dedicated headphone Amp.
The L30 II for example can output 12.5V or enough for 111.5dB SPL Peak, with EQ to Harman.
If you want to be on the safe side, the L70 can output about 17.5V at 64Ω, enough for 114.5dB SPL Peak with EQ to Harman.

Btw, at high impedances, the L70 is more powerful than the A90 and A90 Discrete, so moving up the ladder of Topping HPAmps would actually be a downgrade as far as volume is concerned.

If you're curious, the LA90 can output about 21V at 64Ω, enough for 116dB Peak with EQ to Harman.

Putting it in terms of perceived loudness and using the L30 II as baseline, it looks like this:

-L30 II ($150): 1x
-L70 ($350): 1.25x as loud as L30 II
-LA90 ($900): 1.36x as loud as L30 II

 

[DouglasteR]

Probably better to get new headphones at this point.

Be careful with loud volumes if you're noticing this. It would be prudent to get a hearing test at an audiologist if you value your hearing.


If you changed or updated foobar version in the last couple of months, try updating to a more recent version. There was a bug that was interfering with volume loudness where it could have been outputting less than 0 dbfs even when the windows slider was on max.

Updated just to be sure ! No perceivable change !

Give this one a try? Can try to make filter 7 a few dB lower if it is still clipping and lower the preamp by a proportional amount

Preamp: -8.1 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 33 Hz Gain 6.5 dB Q 0.500
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 40 Hz Gain -0.6 dB Q 2.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 94 Hz Gain 1.0 dB Q 1.200
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 220 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.200
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 810 Hz Gain -1.3 dB Q 1.900
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 1400 Hz Gain 1.4 dB Q 2.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 1900 Hz Gain 8.1 dB Q 1.700
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 4100 Hz Gain -6.8 dB Q 2.000
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 5100 Hz Gain 2.9 dB Q 2.000

Using it for today and tomorrow ! Let's see if i can sense any change ! Thanks.

This has nothing to do with your set up. What is your usual source (local files, which streaming service)?. You likely have a source that isnt volume normalised and a range of music some of which has large dynamic range (diff between loudest and quietest with only the largest parts getting near full scale) and others low dynamic range (so everything is near the top of the scale - think modern pop music) - if you set your volume so the LDR stuff is not too loud , the quieter recorded stuff is going to be barely audible at times , so you up the volume, only to get deafened by the next LDR track that comes on.

Lots of the streaming services will have settings in their apps for loudness/ volume normalising (or maybe called levelling or replay gain). Switching that on helps to even all that out , but you may then find the overall level of your content seems reduced- requiring more juice to go real loud.

Yep, i understand. I've actually increased the foobar Preamp that was somthing that i forgot ! I will try to normalize all my library ! Thanks.

@DouglasteR
The HE6se has 91.3dB/V sensitivity at 425Hz, but at 20-120Hz where you want to achieve 110dB SPL, the sensitivity drops to 89.6dB/V.
Ergo, to reach 110dB Peak, your Amp needs to be able to output 10.5V at 64Ω, or about 1.7W.

Since your EQ will boost bass by as many dB as your preamp will reduce volume, and music always peaks at bass frequencies, EQ On vs Off will not affect peak SPL when listening to music. So the 10.5V required is true both for bit-perfect playback w/o EQ, and for playback with EQ to Harman.

None of Topping's AIOs can achieve that 10.5V, but it's easy to do with a dedicated headphone Amp.
The L30 II for example can output 12.5V or enough for 111.5dB SPL Peak, with EQ to Harman.
If you want to be on the safe side, the L70 can output about 17.5V at 64Ω, enough for 114.5dB SPL Peak with EQ to Harman.

Btw, at high impedances, the L70 is more powerful than the A90 and A90 Discrete, so moving up the ladder of Topping HPAmps would actually be a downgrade as far as volume is concerned.

If you're curious, the LA90 can output about 21V at 64Ω, enough for 116dB Peak with EQ to Harman.

Putting it in terms of perceived loudness and using the L30 II as baseline, it looks like this:

-L30 II ($150): 1x
-L70 ($350): 1.25x as loud as L30 II
-LA90 ($900): 1.36x as loud as L30 II

The L70 is very interesting indeed ! Added to my wishlist ! Thanks guys.

 

[DouglasteR]

@DouglasteR
The HE6se has 91.3dB/V sensitivity at 425Hz, but at 20-120Hz where you want to achieve 110dB SPL, the sensitivity drops to 89.6dB/V.
Ergo, to reach 110dB Peak, your Amp needs to be able to output 10.5V at 64Ω, or about 1.7W.

Since your EQ will boost bass by as many dB as your preamp will reduce volume, and music always peaks at bass frequencies, EQ On vs Off will not affect peak SPL when listening to music. So the 10.5V required is true both for bit-perfect playback w/o EQ, and for playback with EQ to Harman.

None of Topping's AIOs can achieve that 10.5V, but it's easy to do with a dedicated headphone Amp.
The L30 II for example can output 12.5V or enough for 111.5dB SPL Peak, with EQ to Harman.
If you want to be on the safe side, the L70 can output about 17.5V at 64Ω, enough for 114.5dB SPL Peak with EQ to Harman.

Btw, at high impedances, the L70 is more powerful than the A90 and A90 Discrete, so moving up the ladder of Topping HPAmps would actually be a downgrade as far as volume is concerned.

If you're curious, the LA90 can output about 21V at 64Ω, enough for 116dB Peak with EQ to Harman.

Putting it in terms of perceived loudness and using the L30 II as baseline, it looks like this:

-L30 II ($150): 1x
-L70 ($350): 1.25x as loud as L30 II
-LA90 ($900): 1.36x as loud as L30 II

After testing some more profiles, i ended going back to the Jae's config (albeit a little bass boosted).

So i ended up biting the L70 option. I will stack it with the DX7 Pro and hopefully this will set me for a decade at least ! (who i'm trying to fool here ?)

I must admit this is my limit ! I'll report when it set them up.

Thanks guys.

 

[halcyonian]

After testing some more profiles, i ended going back to the Jae's config (albeit a little bass boosted).

So i ended up biting the L70 option. I will stack it with the DX7 Pro and hopefully this will set me for a decade at least ! (who i'm trying to fool here ?)

I must admit this is my limit ! I'll report when it set them up.

Thanks guys.

Have you had a chance to try out the new setup?

The HE6 and similar HP really seem to throw us for a loop when it comes to powering them effectively. I'm currently using a vintage speaker amp (Sansui) to drive my SEv2 off of speaker taps. It'd be appealing to have a "better" / more compact / more efficient setup, however.

 

[Leiker535]

The HE6 and similar HP really seem to throw us for a loop when it comes to powering them effectively.

Only when aggressive EQ is concerned, really. I have the v2 and without preamping I use my zen can signature on unity gain all the time. If you don't buy into the "more power = more better" rabbit hole you really don't need extravagant amps to drive these.