Amp for B&W 803 D4 - upgrade Emotiva XPA-3 Gen 1 to Mcintosh, Purify or Hypex Ncx500 or Nilai

[siggen]

I like the sound of the B&Ws. Have been running CM9s for a while, and plan on upgrading to the 803D4, because I can get a very nice price on them. I have a Denon avr-x4300h, into an Emotiva XPA-3 Gen1 ( I think). Do I need to upgrade the amplifier? The Emotive didn't measure well (about 86dB distortion I think) but sounds ok to me in my very untreated living room.

I can get a MC462 for a very good price as well, which is why I started thinking about an amp upgrade in the first place. Happy to use AB, or Class D.

Cheers !

 

[Webninja]

What’s your goal? What will a new amp help you solve?

Maybe start with measuring (REW), or since it sounds good to you, just enjoy.

 

[Galliardist]

I like the sound of the B&Ws. Have been running CM9s for a while, and plan on upgrading to the 803D4, because I can get a very nice price on them. I have a Denon avr-x4300h, into an Emotiva XPA-3 Gen1 ( I think). Do I need to upgrade the amplifier? The Emotive didn't measure well (about 86dB distortion I think) but sounds ok to me in my very untreated living room.

I can get a MC462 for a very good price as well, which is why I started thinking about an amp upgrade in the first place. Happy to use AB, or Class D.

Cheers !

Hm. wrong question, I think.

So, you have CM9s. These are a straightforward floorstander, with the typical bright B&W sound, and an untreated living room.
Pausing only to note that I have a couple of experts round here telling me I can't hear details in an untreated living room "echo chamber", I'd hit pause on the 803D4 at least briefly. It will have quite a different treble dispersion, and on top of that B&W appear to have started the move back towards a more neutral sound with the D4 series (without better information than I've seen, I'm not certain of this). It may not be what you like, let alone need.

It's a large sum of money to splash out on a risk, without auditioning alternatives and considering what is happening with the rest of your system and room. Have you used any EQ from the Denon or elsewhere? Could you use any treatments in your room? Are you running subs? What size is the room and will it accommodate the 803?

If you aren't running EQ, and your ears aren't being assaulted with brightness or noise, it's likely the Emotiva isn't doing too much harm in this instance,

Ultimately, upgrading is about removing flaws and adding capability. The 803 may give you a bit lower unmanaged bass, but what else? That's a question, not a criticism, and the answer could be lots of improvement. But you have to ask the question. A nice price isn't really a good enough reason to throw out something that is working, and if your system isn't working, you need to think about why.

You may be better off investigating room treatments or bass management using a couple of subs. Or even surround with cheaper speakers. You may be able to make your life easier at the source end with a better UI to your streaming, and if you use a turntable you may find that source improvement has more to offer than "better speakers bigger amp".

Certainly, people jumping to earlier versions of the 800Dx speakers seem to get caught out on things quite a lot in the subjective forums. I think you seriously need to think everything through rather than just jump in this direction.

For better advice, tell us more. This kind of question can end up with a lot of irrelevancy and hot air, if you don't give us chapter and verse on things like room size, and whether you are in fact using EQ and so on already.

 

[Galliardist]

It looks like I can rescind part of that answer about the 803D4 response.

B&W 803 D4 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Bowers & Wilkins' 803 D4 not only looks like a scaled version of the flagship 801 D4 [HFN Nov '21] but its performance bears parallels. The impedance trend is not dissimilar, though neither speaker offers a 'nominal 8ohm'. The 803 D4 hits a minimum of 2.7ohm/115Hz (sub-6ohm from...

www.hifinews.com

The treble’s different, but not in a great way.

 

[siggen]

Thanks for taking the time to respond! Here's more details and perspective.

I do have an SVS sub currently, which works nice enough with the CM9s, and I use Audyssey MultiXT32 for EQ. I have not run REW, and don't have the Umik microphone. With my Denon AVR-x4300h, I prefer the Pure Direct mode, but only if the volume is loud enough at MLP couch (about 14 ft). Loud for me is 75 to 80+ dBSPL. At lower volumes, I use the Dynamic EQ without which, everything is too lean.

Room treatments are likely a non starter - its a family room with lots of other uses. Rectangular room, 20 x 16 approx, no back wall, opens to the kitchen behind MLP, with a full length glass sliding door on the right (!) There are blinds, which are usually half drawn. Not great, I know.

I'm 50+, so likely my hearing sensitivity to high freq is low enough that I actually prefer the treble response of the B&W speakers compared to say a Kef Blade One Meta, which I compared to at a local store. The B&W 803D4 were on a Rotel Michi X5 (great dynamics) and the Blade 1s were on McIntosh monoblocks.

One reason for wanting to upgrade is that I really liked the much better bass response of the 803s (without sub) to my CM9+sub solution. This could be due to not great EQ from my denon x4300h, or bad technique on my part, or room modes etc. I am hoping that with the 803s, with bass response spec'd down to 20Hz, I will get better bass/overall sound in Direct mode, without having to listen at high volumes. Certainly, the imaging was better in store with the 803s.

w.r.t the amp situation, its complicated. How do people manage without dynamic EQ, unless listening near field or loud? I'm hoping a better amp than my denon/emotiva will provide better dynamics/bass response at lower volumes, but this may not be realistic.

Regarding pricing, its a one of a kind deal I can get. Without this deal, I would not even think about speakers in this price range. If I absolutely hate the sound at home, I will be able to sell the speakers without losing too much money. Same with the Mcintosh amp. The prudent thing to do would be to save my money, but I have the upgraditis itch

ps: I did take forum recommendations for my desktop setup with JBL A130 + cheap sub under my desk + aayima a08 amp running USB from my PC. Sounds great/effortless.

Once again, thanks for your help.

 

[Galliardist]

That's a good, detailed reply. Thanks.

First thing, I'm probably the wrong person to comment on some aspects of this. I'm 62 and further down the high frequency hearing loss path than you... accelerated a bit in the last couple of years by painkillers, as well. But I still find bright speakers like B&W too much. I don't buy the idea that hearing loss leads to having to prefer bright speakers at all, and I dare say you were younger when you got the CM9s.

Anyway, to work. You've done a reasonable comparison at least at the treble end, by comparing to Blades and preferring. The obvious thing is that the 803 is still likely to sound a bit different to the CM9 in the same room, and that's always the risk here.

Bass? Read the HiFi News numbers for a better picture. In practice, the 803 doesn't go down so far: you may not get any extra at the very bottom end over the CM9 in your room.

Amp? min effective impedence 1 ohm. (That's why they used the previous Marantz reference amps instead of the PM-10 in the Eindhoven listening session for the HiFi News review, the PM-10 is only really good above 2 ohms). The Emotiva may not cut it either, so if you are going to spend the money buy a matching amp. The MC462 is good into 2 ohms and will probably get there for the speakers:

McIntosh Laboratory MC462 power amplifier Measurements

Sidebar 4: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Buy one, buy the other, maybe. You'll do as well with a good Hypex, but you won't get the blue meters or the discount. Oh, and check you get enough gain before buying. No point buying a 400w power amp if gain only gets you half way there.

I'd budget a second sub as well and make sure with the bass. I'm not certain that the speaker is really the dramatic upgrade you'd expect, but haven't heard it - it might be. Can you get an in room demo before purchase?

 

[Webninja]

I’d get the Umik to get some idea of what’s going on in your room. It can help you position your sub. I also found it very useful to measure what Audyssey is doing, a post room correction measurement.


Good advice on more than one sub, which will even out the bass response throughout the room.

 

[Gary4321]

I recently upgraded from 20 year old B&W N805's (w/ HTM2) to the 803D4's and it is a world of difference. Much cleaner , better - wider stage presence, and hearing so much more detail. It also seem like notes hang in the air on acoustic jazz / vocals. a plucked string is so much more "in the room".
I have a Rythemik E15HP2, but it seems to hardly be playing in pure direct 2 channel. I also have CM5's as my surrounds, which are probably more like the tweeter in your CM9's. It is hard to compare. I find the midrange of the 803 is much wider and better sounding to my ears. Mine are driven by a PassLabs X5 (which is only 125watts per channel - which is pure Class A to 25 watts). I am thinking upgrading my amp to a 2 channel Classe or PassLabs X250.8 as I think the 803's will open up even more - but having trouble getting any real opinions on this.
I assume you have listened to the 803D4's? I was able to listen to them at a local shop in both an HT and 2 channel setting. My Livingroom is 28 x 19 x 10 of course our situations are different, but the 805's were way too small for this room (I bought them when we lived somewhere else with a much smaller room). I am very happy with 2 channel music on the 803's. the other night it really sounded like Diana Krall was in the room (I know this is a very subjective comment). I also just got the Eversolo DMP A6 Streamer - and the 24bit / 192kHz music is nice.
I too got a great deal on my 803's ... DM me if you want to compare notes.

 

[oldtexasdog]

I use B&W's also (705's) with a Denon X6700H and 2 Sunfire True Subs in a smooth walled room with bad echo's. Drove me nuts till I put in a DriveRack DBX PA2. I also could not do room treatments and this solved my problems. Hope this helps.

 

[Matias]

I like the sound of the B&Ws. Have been running CM9s for a while, and plan on upgrading to the 803D4, because I can get a very nice price on them. I have a Denon avr-x4300h, into an Emotiva XPA-3 Gen1 ( I think). Do I need to upgrade the amplifier? The Emotive didn't measure well (about 86dB distortion I think) but sounds ok to me in my very untreated living room.

I can get a MC462 for a very good price as well, which is why I started thinking about an amp upgrade in the first place. Happy to use AB, or Class D.

Cheers !

Try to contact the sellers and get information on buying and eventually returning, what is their return policy, etc. Small price to pay (restocking fee, shipping back) in the worst case, but you get to test and know for sure.

 

[siggen]

Thanks for the responses. Yes, I have heard the 803D4s, and really liked how they sound. Its a bigger, more in your chest kind of sound compared to my CM9s. Clearer too, but that could have been due the store's treated room, nice big amps etc. I do have the option to return if I'm not happy for some reason.

Regarding 2ch + HT, that is my use case as well. I'm going to try just 2 ch mode first for music, without sub on. Didn't think they needed one, but my room could. I will also try my x4300h + emotiva xpa-3 combo first, and decide later on an amp upgrade.

I believe the x4300h has the AK4458 DAC, so I'll try that first, streaming from an Nvidia shield. I cast Tidal music to the Shield from my phone. Another option is to get an external DAC (with/out streamer) and use the CD analog in on the receiver. I don't think there is a way to turn off internal front amps in the Denon.

For the pre-outs, here's the spec from Denon.,

Analog

Input sensitivity:	200 mV
Frequency response:	10 Hz – 100 kHz — +1, –3 dB (Direct mode)
S/N:	102 dB (IHF–A weighted, Direct mode)
Distortion:	0.005 % (20 Hz – 20 kHz) (Direct mode)
Rated output:	1.2 V

Does that 1.2V specify the pre-out voltage? I think the emotiva has a 1.5V input sensitivity, so I'm likely not getting full power from the amp (although, the max I go is about 70 to 75dB on the Denon, which gives me 75+ dBSPL at MLP).

One last thing. I will spring for the Umik -1 microphone and use REW to play around, and compare to Audyssey.

@Gary4321 do you use any EQ in music mode? I'd rather not, but for now, it does sound better on the CM9s. +1 on Diana Krall. Actually going to see her live next month.

 

[kemmler3D]

The XPA is specc'd @ 275w into 8 ohm, which gets you about 107dB at 10 feet as the D4s are specc'd at 90dB sensitivity.

Depending on what's going on in the bass region you may start to run short on power when you play really loud. Upgrading the amp wouldn't be completely insane if you have a bigger room and like to play loud, but in all likelihood you're going to get good sound out of the D4s with the Emotiva most or all of the time. If you do upgrade, I would prioritize power above all, none of the options you mentioned are going to have objectionable distortion within their design parameters.

 

[Gary4321]

Thanks for the responses. Yes, I have heard the 803D4s, and really liked how they sound. Its a bigger, more in your chest kind of sound compared to my CM9s. Clearer too, but that could have been due the store's treated room, nice big amps etc. I do have the option to return if I'm not happy for some reason.

Regarding 2ch + HT, that is my use case as well. I'm going to try just 2 ch mode first for music, without sub on. Didn't think they needed one, but my room could. I will also try my x4300h + emotiva xpa-3 combo first, and decide later on an amp upgrade.

I believe the x4300h has the AK4458 DAC, so I'll try that first, streaming from an Nvidia shield. I cast Tidal music to the Shield from my phone. Another option is to get an external DAC (with/out streamer) and use the CD analog in on the receiver. I don't think there is a way to turn off internal front amps in the Denon.

For the pre-outs, here's the spec from Denon.,

Analog

Input sensitivity:	200 mV
Frequency response:	10 Hz – 100 kHz — +1, –3 dB (Direct mode)
S/N:	102 dB (IHF–A weighted, Direct mode)
Distortion:	0.005 % (20 Hz – 20 kHz) (Direct mode)
Rated output:	1.2 V

Does that 1.2V specify the pre-out voltage? I think the emotiva has a 1.5V input sensitivity, so I'm likely not getting full power from the amp (although, the max I go is about 70 to 75dB on the Denon, which gives me 75+ dBSPL at MLP).

One last thing. I will spring for the Umik -1 microphone and use REW to play around, and compare to Audyssey.

@Gary4321 do you use any EQ in music mode? I'd rather not, but for now, it does sound better on the CM9s. +1 on Diana Krall. Actually going to see her live next month.

Its funny you should ask.... For HT yes I like Audessey and I bought the $20 iphone version so I could just have Audessey have an effect on sound below 500hz. I might lower to 300Hz.
On my Marantz there are 2 separate "Presets" So Preset 1 is for HT with Audessey. Preset 2 is for 2 channel music, (with Sub). I was just listening and turning Audessey on and off (and cycling thru reference and flat - two different built in curves) and I like 2 channel most with it off. I like testing with acoustic guitar and female vocals (like Diane Krall , tonight was was comparing with Ana Caram Blue Bassa Nova) and found that the Audessey put some effects on the vocals that almost added a slight echo making it more disperse, but I preferred with without Audessey. I have an Eversolo DMP A6 Streamer (has a DAC too, but right now I am using HDMI in). SO short answer - No, I prefer no EQ for 2 channel music.

 

[chronos1701]

I'm using B&W 803D4 speakers as well and I can relate to that "in your chest" sound that you are referring to. I'm powering them with a QSC RMX2450a pro amp. My listening area is about 3m away and listen at about 85dB. Plenty of power available for these speakers with this amp.

 

[Loysius]

Here is my in-room response of my 803d4s without and then with room correction. Behind me is a half wall going into kitchen that goes into a formal dining room. My space is very complicated, I bet yours is at least a little better.

 

[Count Dacula]

If people don't mind.... my next task is to fire up a set of NiB 1991 B&Ws I got from my wife's uncle. Not sure of the model, but I wanted to hear from experts. Are they worth hanging onto? The only competition in the room is trusty old KEF Q65s. I have a Parasound 2125 or Vidar to use on the B&Ws.

The only hang up is one speaker seems to have an internal short, after playing for under a minute (total). I've had the experience where the input leads pass thru the cone on the way to the coil, then intertwine enough to lock up. I also blew a channel on the old Adcom at the same moment.....afaik.

Just wondering if anyone has any input (pun intended)

 

[Count Dacula]

I would guess they are DM604, any good?

(not the actual speakers)

B&W Bowers & Wilkins DM604 Floor Speakers | eBay

<p>B&W Bowers & Wilkins DM604 Floor Speakers with Grills in great working condition. I have a video I can send upon request.</p><br /><br /><p>PLEASE NOTE that the shipping carrier that is chosen will not always be the one used. I will choose the quickest option. This could be USPS, UPS, or...

www.ebay.com

 

[chronos1701]

They're decent speakers. I say plug them in and give them a try.

 

[Count Dacula]

Exactly, but in case I have to purchase any parts, it's good to get some encouragement. Thanks. I want to get to the location and test them out. Hopefully there's some kind of external fuse, or something. I'll stick a meter on them first.

 

[Galliardist]

I would guess they are DM604, any good?

View attachment 293855 (not the actual speakers)

B&W Bowers & Wilkins DM604 Floor Speakers | eBay

<p>B&W Bowers & Wilkins DM604 Floor Speakers with Grills in great working condition. I have a video I can send upon request.</p><br /><br /><p>PLEASE NOTE that the shipping carrier that is chosen will not always be the one used. I will choose the quickest option. This could be USPS, UPS, or...

www.ebay.com

Try DM640 or 640i (pictured) - previous model, for the ones in your first picture at the back. Drivers may be hard to find, let's hope it's something else.