Amp+DAC for HD800s? Are they really that differnet?

[Mehdiem]

Hi Folks. I'm new to the headphone world. I have been enjoying my KEF-LS50 + Yamaha NR602 for a long time now and recently purchased an HD800s headphone. I’m currently using my HD800s with Dragonfly Colabt amp/DAC. I’m looking to buy a desktop amp. I will be connecting it to my streamer (Bluesound Node through Coax) to stream from Tidal. So connecting permanently to a computer is not an option, hence, using EQ software won’t be practical, however, I don’t mind buying a physical EQ a bit later. For now, My budget is up to $500 but I could go a bit higher if necessary. I’m ok with both stacks or integrated but don’t want the tube. I’m generally listening to jazz, classical, soundtrack, strings, pop, and some slow rocks. I posted my questions on Reddit and some folks told me that even cheaper amp/DAC such as DX30 Pro+ would be good enough, so I don't want to over spend. This amazed me and decided to stop by here to hear your opinion. Having said that I have a few choices in mind and am open to any other suggestions. I want to buy something that is good enough that I don’t need to upgrade anytime soon again. Also, it would be advantageous if this recommendation would be compatible with physical EQ, or has its own software EQ that I can adjust from the amp itself.


What do you recommend? Also please tell me how much better than recommendation would be against my current amp?

- IFI Zen Dac + IFI Zen Can OR
- Topping E50/L50
- Modi/Magni
- Jotunheim/Modius
- Topping DX3 Pro+

 

[Zensō]

The HD800S badly needs EQ (I find it unlistenable without). If you’re not open to using a computer as your source, I’d recommend the RME ADI-2 DAC fs because it has a 7-band PEQ built in. I know it’s out of your price range, but I’d suggest saving your pennies to purchase what I see as the best long term solution for those headphones.

 

[garbulky]

This is what I use
The Garage 1217 Kameleon eq (hardware analog eq that has filter made specifically for HD800S). This adjusts that treble and adds a bit of midrange and bass punch.
The Schiit Loki eq - used only for the lowest bass knob to give it more bass.
Emotiva Bas-X A-100 in direct drive mode with the jumper engaged.
The sound is really impressive with a lot more punch and bass than without all three in the mix. Also, most importantly that treble glare is reduced.
There is a little bit of hiss because of the A-100. If you want to skip the hiss look at Schitt's options for amps. They've got some good ones

 

[Mehdiem]

The HD800S badly needs EQ (I find it unlistenable without). If you’re not open to using a computer as your source, I’d recommend the RME ADI-2 DAC fs because it has a 7-band PEQ built in. I know it’s out of your price range, but I’d suggest saving your pennies to purchase what I see as the best long term solution for those headphones.

This is what I wasn’t expecting but something that can surely contemplate on (and tempted to pursue already). I like the idea of buying for life (or at least buy something with a good residual value that I can easily sell later in case of upgrade or downgrades). Having said that, how do you compare RME ADJ-2 against this or similar combos: Jotunheim+Modius+Lokius or any other amp+dec+external EQ?

If I go with the above mentioned separates, I can save about $700 here in Canada. And in future I can keep the EQ and change dec/amp. The question that I need to answer is how superior the quality RME would be as compared to the above option? The problem is not so many places here that I can go and audition them.

 

[Zensō]

This is what I wasn’t expecting but something that can surely contemplate on (and tempted to pursue already). I like the idea of buying for life (or at least buy something with a good residual value that I can easily sell later in case of upgrade or downgrades). Having said that, how do you compare RME ADJ-2 against this or similar combos: Jotunheim+Modius+Lokius or any other amp+dec+external EQ?

If I go with the above mentioned separates, I can save about $700 here in Canada. And in future I can keep the EQ and change dec/amp. The question that I need to answer is how superior the quality RME would be as compared to the above option? The problem is not so many places here that I can go and audition them.

I’m allergic to “audiophile” gear in general. I’ve gone down that rabbit hole and wasted a lot of money on poorly-engineered, over-hyped, over-priced gear targeted at audiophiles. I much prefer to purchase either pro audio or consumer level products.

I would take the RME over any of the gear you’ve mentioned. It’s one small box that does everything you need, with an excellent, high-powered headphone amp, an extremely quiet headphone out for IEMs, both XLR and RCA preamp outs, built in 7-band PEQ, crossfeed, adaptive loudness, perfect channel matching, a nice remote, and a big screen, just to list a few features. Plus the product designer is a member here and RME has some of the best customer support in the business.

Regarding auditioning headamps and DACs, my preference is to start with transparent gear that doesn’t color the sound, and then fine tune the frequency response to my liking using EQ. The process of buying and selling various combinations of amps and DACs to eventually arrive at a “synergy” that works for one set of headphones is futile in my opinion.

That’s my two cents, your mileage may vary.

 

[solderdude]

Lokius is a tone control. It cannot apply the needed correction.

You can use EQ with any DAC but has to be done in the player or software.
The ADI-2 has its own EQ so you can use it without EQ software/plug-ins and can drive the HD800(s) so replaces Jotunheim+Modius+Lokius

There are many people simply using the HD800S without any EQ and are happy. There are also people that hate the HD800.

So... try to audition it. Then decide if the only the treble bothers you or you also want a bit more bass.

 

[Mehdiem]

Lokius is a tone control. It cannot apply the needed correction.

You can use EQ with any DAC but has to be done in the player or software.
The ADI-2 has its own EQ so you can use it without EQ software/plug-ins and can drive the HD800(s) so replaces Jotunheim+Modius+Lokius

There are many people simply using the HD800S without any EQ and are happy. There are also people that hate the HD800.

So... try to audition it. Then decide if the only the treble bothers you or you also want a bit more bass.

Thanks for the clarification regarding EQ. I didn’t know the difference between tone control and EQing within the player software. I even imagined external tone control (I.e. Lokius) are better than software and would do the respective correction. So, if I’m understanding correctly, ADI-2 perform the correction within software prior to sending the sound from DAC to Amp, as opposed to the following order: DAC-to-Tone Control-to-Amp? That’s why is more effective in tone control?

I like the idea of getting transparent device, so that I can adopt it to my liking, in this way when I change my headphone I can change the setting accordingly to suit my need. This is an amazing perspective! I learnt about it yesterday, reading this article:

What We Hear

FIRST SOME UPDATES: This is a promising sign. I’ve managed to publish another article in less than a week and it’s a big one! Since last wee...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

Now after adopting this perspective, I feel less anxiety when selecting my futures gears, such as pre-amp and Amp for my LS50

 

[Zensō]

Thanks for the clarification regarding EQ. I didn’t know the difference between tone control and EQing within the player software. I even imagined external tone control (I.e. Lokius) are better than software and would do the respective correction. So, if I’m understanding correctly, ADI-2 perform the correction within software prior to sending the sound from DAC to Amp, as opposed to the following order: DAC-to-Tone Control-to-Amp? That’s why is more effective in tone control?

I like the idea of getting transparent device, so that I can adopt it to my liking, in this way when I change my headphone I can change the setting accordingly to suit my need. This is an amazing perspective! I learnt about it yesterday, reading this article:

What We Hear

FIRST SOME UPDATES: This is a promising sign. I’ve managed to publish another article in less than a week and it’s a big one! Since last wee...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

Now after adopting this perspective, I feel less anxiety when selecting my futures gears, such as pre-amp and Amp for my LS50

A parametric EQ enables you to very precisely correct for anomalies in a headphone’s frequency response. A more crude tone control like the Lokius doesn’t allow for that level of precision. It doesn’t really matter where the EQ is applied; the resulting adjustment will be identical, regardless of whether it’s done in software or hardware.

This might shed some more light on the subject:

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/9o2f5n

 

[f1shb0n3]

Thanks for the clarification regarding EQ. I didn’t know the difference between tone control and EQing within the player software. I even imagined external tone control (I.e. Lokius) are better than software and would do the respective correction. So, if I’m understanding correctly, ADI-2 perform the correction within software prior to sending the sound from DAC to Amp, as opposed to the following order: DAC-to-Tone Control-to-Amp? That’s why is more effective in tone control?

Analog tone controls are limited in what they correct (4 bands with fixed frequency and Q-factor on Lokius) and might add some noise/distortion depending on the circuit - check Amir's review of Lokius to see how SINAD drops with tone controls enabled.

RME ADI-2 does PEQ, tone control, loudness, etc. on the digital signal before the DAC, so essentially there's no added noise or distortion and you also have parametric EQ which is infinitely more flexible than fixed tone controls to allow you to EQ your headphones.

@oratory1990 publishes Harman target PEQ presets for many headphones at his Reddit site that includes RME ADI-2 presets for some of the headphones too. I like my HD6xx much better with his PEQ on ADI-2 vs stock with no correction.

Now after adopting this perspective, I feel less anxiety when selecting my futures gears, such as pre-amp and Amp for my LS50

RME ADI-2 is an excellent preamp too (in addition to headphone amp, DAC and DSP), add a decent power amp (checkout Buckeye) and you are ready to go with essentially state of the art system for speakers and headphones.

 

[f1shb0n3]

Digital signal processing in general (parametric EQ, room correction) is the most important thing to learn about audio if you are aiming for objective and subjective improvements in sound quality. It will improve your experience with headphones, stereo and home theater better than what upgrading any other electronic component can. I'd even go as far as saying you won't hear any differences between the DAC/amps you listed if comparing level-matched, but the difference between DSP vs no DSP is hugely audible and fully customizable to taste.

Interestingly, most 'old school' audiophiles will avoid any DSP, scoff at and say it sounds digital or unnatural. Same people will proceed to "improve" their system with a new interconnect cable and marvel at the "difference" it makes. Don't be this person - learn and try DSP, hear for yourself

 

[Mehdiem]

Analog tone controls are limited in what they correct (4 bands with fixed frequency and Q-factor on Lokius) and might add some noise/distortion depending on the circuit - check Amir's review of Lokius to see how SINAD drops with tone controls enabled.

RME ADI-2 does PEQ, tone control, loudness, etc. on the digital signal before the DAC, so essentially there's no added noise or distortion and you also have parametric EQ which is infinitely more flexible than fixed tone controls to allow you to EQ your headphones.

@oratory1990 publishes Harman target PEQ presets for many headphones at his Reddit site that includes RME ADI-2 presets for some of the headphones too. I like my HD6xx much better with his PEQ on ADI-2 vs stock with no correction.

RME ADI-2 is an excellent preamp too (in addition to headphone amp, DAC and DSP), add a decent power amp (checkout Buckeye) and you are ready to go with essentially state of the art system for speakers and headphones.

That's so encouraging to hear that I can use this as a pre-amp for my stereo system as well! This makes me much more confident.

A quick question came to my mind after reading about the EQ. I initially said I don't want to rely on software EQ, that was because my Mac is far away from where I sit and from where I want to enjoy my music after dinner, and I didn't want to be dependent on the computer. Now, I noticed that I can do the EQ through Roon as well. So, I can get a long USB cable from Mac to DAC/Amp. Or, I could send EQed Roon to Bluesound Node, and from there to DAC/amp. In that case, if a buy a cheaper DAC/amp (i.e. ~$300), and use Roon to EQ it, could I still get the same result, or RME is still superior? Honestly, my heart is with the RME, but I want to know my options before making my decisions.

 

[Zensō]

That's so encouraging to hear that I can use this as a pre-amp for my stereo system as well! This makes me much more confident.

A quick question came to my mind after reading about the EQ. I initially said I don't want to rely on software EQ, that was because my Mac is far away from where I sit and from where I want to enjoy my music after dinner, and I didn't want to be dependent on the computer. Now, I noticed that I can do the EQ through Roon as well. So, I can get a long USB cable from Mac to DAC/Amp. Or, I could send EQed Roon to Bluesound Node, and from there to DAC/amp. In that case, if a buy a cheaper DAC/amp (i.e. ~$300), and use Roon to EQ it, could I still get the same result, or RME is still superior? Honestly, my heart is with the RME, but I want to know my options before making my decisions.

Yup, Roon to the Node would work great. You might actually get very slightly better results using the DSP in Roon because it allows for a full 10 bands in the PEQ.

 

[f1shb0n3]

That's so encouraging to hear that I can use this as a pre-amp for my stereo system as well! This makes me much more confident.

To clarify - RME ADI-2 DAC doesn't have analog inputs to connect other analog sources as preamp, but has digital coax and optical inputs in addition to USB that you can switch between.

A quick question came to my mind after reading about the EQ. I initially said I don't want to rely on software EQ, that was because my Mac is far away from where I sit and from where I want to enjoy my music after dinner, and I didn't want to be dependent on the computer. Now, I noticed that I can do the EQ through Roon as well. So, I can get a long USB cable from Mac to DAC/Amp. Or, I could send EQed Roon to Bluesound Node, and from there to DAC/amp. In that case, if a buy a cheaper DAC/amp (i.e. ~$300), and use Roon to EQ it, could I still get the same result, or RME is still superior? Honestly, my heart is with the RME, but I want to know my options before making my decisions.

RME ADI-2 has some limitations - it has only 5 PEQ bands, plus low and high shelf from tone controls. It's sufficient for some headphones, but might not be for others. It might not be sufficient for room correction also depending on your situation.

Using Mac/PC for PEQ is awkward - you enable it system-wide to listen to headphones and then forget to switch it off or change profile when listening to speakers. I can't emphasize how important convenience and automatic switching of PEQ profiles is - if I ever have to do anything other than press a button to switch between headphones and speakers and have them sound right, I always end up listening to incorrectly calibrated sound until realizing much later that everything sounds horrible.

Roon is a great option for PEQ.

 

[Mehdiem]

Yup, Roon to the Node would work great. You might actually get very slightly better results using the DSP in Roon because it allows for a full 10 bands in the PEQ.

In that case what amp/DAC combo would you recommend?

 

[Zensō]

You could try out this curve by entering the values in the lower left table into Roon.

Sennheiser HD800S.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Zensō]

RME ADI-2 has some limitations - it has only 5 PEQ bands, plus low and high shelf from tone controls. It's sufficient for some headphones, but might not be for others. It might not be sufficient for room correction also depending on your situation.

Just in case you weren’t aware, with the latest firmware update the treble and bass shelves can now be saved along with the 5 other bands, effectively turning it into a 7 band PEQ.

 

[Mehdiem]

You could try out this curve by entering the values in the lower left table into Roon.

Sennheiser HD800S.pdf

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

So, if I want to pursue the Roon path, what amp/DAC should I get? I assume if I take that path then I don't need RME, and a cheaper DAC/amp can do the job? Right?

 

[Zensō]

So, if I want to pursue the Roon path, what amp/DAC should I get? I assume if I take that path then I don't need RME, and a cheaper DAC/amp can do the job? Right?

Yes. The RME has other nice features, but the built-in PEQ is its most valuable asset in my opinion.

Regarding which DAC/amp, there are lots of options. I’d suggest using the review index and filtering for headphone amps and DACs, then “recommended”.

Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index

Master table and index of all audio equipment reviews and measurements.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[garbulky]

I would not advice using the Schiit Loki mini by itself to correct for the HD800's flaws. (Because it doesn't - as others have said). I would reccomend the Garage 1217 eq which (solderdude actually designed) instead for that purpose because it comes already pre-set for the HD800S. I thought it did a really nice job correcting for the tone. I added the Schiit Loki mini (not the Lokius) to add a touch off bass on the low end using only one knob. I think the improvement was noticeable because it gave me a really nice impactful feel with a hint more fullness (subjectively speaking).

The reason I got the 1217 eq was that I didn't want to mess around figuring out the right eq or entering in figures or messing with digital eq. I liked the DAC I already had. So I didn't want to change it out. So it presented me a nice ready-made solution. It also helped that I use multiple digital inputs - PC, Blu Ray player, console, Video streamer, Record player etc. So having an outboard analog box like the 1217 made it easy to eq all my sources.

As for the DAC itself, for the vast majority of people most DACs are going to sound the same whether they measure superbly or not. Though there are some that claim they hear differences.

 

[Mehdiem]

Guys, I wanted fro thank you all for guiding me through my purchase decision. My RME arrived last Friday and I’m very happy with my purchase. Even though I initially bought it for my HD800s (and it was way above my budget as a headphone amp) but now I have been also using it for my stereo system (with KEF LS50). The power of having a good EQ cannot just be explained just by words. For many years, I thought EQing is a bad thing and would ruin the music by making it “fake” or “unrealistic”, but after reading a few articles lately and joining this forum, I realized that contrary to the conventional wisdom EQing is a good thing to do. Now the difference (and improvement) that I hear after EQing, is something that I previously thought I could obtain only through upgrading my amp to a very expensive pre-amp+amp (that could have cost me above 10k), not by simply adding an EQ. The next step for me is to soon, purchase a “good enough” and “natural” power amp to replace my Yamaha NR-602 and use my RME as a pre-amp.