Amp capable of powering a Modhouse Tungsten

[johny_2000]

If this is accurate, then they don't actually look that hard to drive at reasonable levels. Even 90db is too much for me, and I don't see how people are listening to much higher than that for extended periods if they want to actually retain their hearing.

That's the problem. Not everyone realizes how much irreversible damage loud music causes to your hearing.

 

[JIW]

If this is accurate, then they don't actually look that hard to drive at reasonable levels. Even 90db is too much for me, and I don't see how people are listening to much higher than that for extended periods if they want to actually retain their hearing.

Power requirements are about reproducing peaks. For some types of music, peaks are significantly higher than the average level. Classical music, for instance, can have peaks well above 100 dB SPL even at normal listening levels. Some recordings even have peaks above 110 dB SPL at normal levels.

 

[Human Bass]

Gustard H26

 

[Mr Swing King]

I would imagine most offerings from Lake People and Violectric were up to the challenge. Both of these tend to make amplifiers that put out a lot of juice around 100-150 ohm.

 

[Koeitje]

If this is accurate, then they don't actually look that hard to drive at reasonable levels. Even 90db is too much for me, and I don't see how people are listening to much higher than that for extended periods if they want to actually retain their hearing.

If you listen at 85dB average you still want your amp to be able to deliver 100-105dB just to handle the peaks.

 

[Sanctuary]

If you listen at 85dB average you still want your amp to be able to deliver 100-105dB just to handle the peaks.

I don't even have the Tungestens yet, but they were on my radar, and I'm probably going to try to get a pair when orders return next month. I just ended up getting a Flux M-Field. I wanted a tube-like(ish) sound without having to deal with actual tubes, it's more than sufficient for the Tungstens and has the positive side effect of apparently making the OG HD800s not sounding like complete rubbish. Headphones I've had for many years now and can't stand to use for music, and only use them with the Realiser.

 

[Jeromeof]

I have a pair on loan - but interesting I can power these from a MacBook (at max volume) - I would probably like some headroom but I am impressed with the MacBook given the reputation of the Tungsestens

 

[SicknessWin]

For someone pretty new in this, i can't say that it all is quite to my understanding yet.
So i guess my question would be, can a DX7 Pro+ power this well?
Been looking at these and maybe a FiiO K17 for them, when it drops.

 

[JIW]

For someone pretty new in this, i can't say that it all is quite to my understanding yet.
So i guess my question would be, can a DX7 Pro+ power this well?
Been looking at these and maybe a FiiO K17 for them, when it drops.

The DX7 Pro+ should produce 10 V RMS, i.e. 20 dBV, at 135 Ohm so the maximum peak SPL would be 76-10*log10(135/1000) + 20 + 10*log10(2) = 107.71 dB SPL. For highly dynamical music, this will not be enough. Consider just getting a headphone amplifier since the DAC of the DX7 Pro+ is more than good enough.

The K17 has a maximum voltage output of 48 Vpp which is 20*log10(48/8^.5) = 24.59 dBV or just 4.6 dB above the DX7 Pro+. Also, the SINAD for the line-out at 0 dBFS is only 92 dB compared to the 123 dB of the DX7 Pro+.

Source

Just try it with the DX7 Pro+ and maybe add an A70 Pro if you want it louder.

 

[SicknessWin]

The DX7 Pro+ should produce 10 V RMS, i.e. 20 dBV, at 135 Ohm so the maximum peak SPL would be 76-10*log10(135/1000) + 20 + 10*log10(2) = 107.71 dB SPL. For highly dynamical music, this will not be enough. Consider just getting a headphone amplifier since the DAC of the DX7 Pro+ is more than good enough.

The K17 has a maximum voltage output of 48 Vpp which is 20*log10(48/8^.5) = 24.59 dBV or just 4.6 dB above the DX7 Pro+. Also, the SINAD for the line-out at 0 dBFS is only 92 dB compared to the 123 dB of the DX7 Pro+.
View attachment 423529
Source

Just try it with the DX7 Pro+ and maybe add an A70 Pro if you want it louder.

Much appreciated!
Had no idea the SINAD was that much lower, am i correct in assuming the DX7 has way less noise/distortion at higher volumes?
Might need to check out a few options,.
Would you be able to recommend any other than the A70 Pro? Not that i don't like it, but simply to have options to test out.
I'm sorry if this is not the post to ask, if so, please do direct me in the right way and i'll post there instead.

 

[JIW]

Much appreciated!
Had no idea the SINAD was that much lower, am i correct in assuming the DX7 has way less noise/distortion at higher volumes?
Might need to check out a few options,.
Would you be able to recommend any other than the A70 Pro? Not that i don't like it, but simply to have options to test out.
I'm sorry if this is not the post to ask, if so, please do direct me in the right way and i'll post there instead.

Noise should be largely independent of volume but distortion should increase with volume. So the DX7 Pro+ would be quieter but also have lower distortion at high levels.

 

[JIW]

Much appreciated!
Had no idea the SINAD was that much lower, am i correct in assuming the DX7 has way less noise/distortion at higher volumes?
Might need to check out a few options,.
Would you be able to recommend any other than the A70 Pro? Not that i don't like it, but simply to have options to test out.
I'm sorry if this is not the post to ask, if so, please do direct me in the right way and i'll post there instead.

The A70 Pro can produce 6000 mW RMS at 64 Ohm. Alternatively, the L70 can produce 4700 mW RMS at 64 Ohm which is only 10*log10(4700/6000) = -1.06 dB less. If you combine it with the matching E70 DAC and sell the DX7 Pro+ you might not lose much money.

If that is not enough, consider a pair of Topping B100 speaker amplifiers that should produce 66 Vpp which is 20*log10(66/54) more than the A70 Pro. For even more, consider a pair of Topping B200 speaker amplifiers that should produce 110 Vpp which is 20*log10(110/54) = 6.18 dB more than the A70 Pro for a maximum peak SPL of 76 - 10*log10(.135) + 20*log10(110) - 10*log10(8) + 10*log10(2) = 119.50 dB SPL for the single sides and 2 - 10*log10(.155/.135) = 1.4 dB higher for the double sided.

 

[orchardaudio]

Later this year I will be releasing a dedicated headphone amplifier called Valencia. It will be able to drive these headphones with no problem. Preliminary specs are as follows:
Gain: 14dB
SNR: > 134dB (A-weighted)
Output Power (RMS):
32 ohm -- 15.12W
64 ohm -- 7.56W
150 ohm -- 3.24W
300 ohm -- 1.62W
600 ohm -- 0.81W

I will post full measurements when they are available.

P.S.
Mod House Audio currently has a prototype they are testing.

 

[SicknessWin]

Noise should be largely independent of volume but distortion should increase with volume. So the DX7 Pro+ would be quieter but also have lower distortion at high levels.

That would be to my liking, at least until i've tried the combo.
I'm guessing no one wants distortion, at the expense of volume.

The A70 Pro can produce 6000 mW RMS at 64 Ohm. Alternatively, the L70 can produce 4700 mW RMS at 64 Ohm which is only 10*log10(4700/6000) = -1.06 dB less. If you combine it with the matching E70 DAC and sell the DX7 Pro+ you might not lose much money.

If that is not enough, consider a pair of Topping B100 speaker amplifiers that should produce 66 Vpp which is 20*log10(66/54) more than the A70 Pro. For even more, consider a pair of Topping B200 speaker amplifiers that should produce 110 Vpp which is 20*log10(110/54) = 6.18 dB more than the A70 Pro for a maximum peak SPL of 76 - 10*log10(.135) + 20*log10(110) - 10*log10(8) + 10*log10(2) = 119.50 dB SPL for the single sides and 2 - 10*log10(.155/.135) = 1.4 dB higher for the double sided.

When you state "The A70 Pro can produce 6000 mW RMS at 64 Ohm. Alternatively, the L70 can produce 4700 mW RMS at 64 Ohm which is only 10*log10(4700/6000) = -1.06 dB less." is that less than the DX7 or the K17? And we're talking volume alone, not SINAD?
The A70 Pro does look like a good addition from what you write, i'm just too new to understand the numbers and how this would translate from paper to actual functionality.
Thank you for the helpful replies!

 

[JIW]

That would be to my liking, at least until i've tried the combo.
I'm guessing no one wants distortion, at the expense of volume.

When you state "The A70 Pro can produce 6000 mW RMS at 64 Ohm. Alternatively, the L70 can produce 4700 mW RMS at 64 Ohm which is only 10*log10(4700/6000) = -1.06 dB less." is that less than the DX7 or the K17? And we're talking volume alone, not SINAD?
The A70 Pro does look like a good addition from what you write, i'm just too new to understand the numbers and how this would translate from paper to actual functionality.
Thank you for the helpful replies!

Power is about volume. The DX7Pro+ can produce 1350 mW at 64 Ohm so a good bit less. The K17 can produce 4000 mW at 32 Ohm so at least 2000 mW at 64 Ohm. Still less than the others.

 

[SicknessWin]

Power is about volume. The DX7Pro+ can produce 1350 mW at 64 Ohm so a good bit less. The K17 can produce 4000 mW at 32 Ohm so at least 2000 mW at 64 Ohm. Still less than the others.

Still learning to differentiate.
The "-1.06dB less" for me looked like it could have been connected to the SINAD, hence the question.
But if the A70 Pro would help with the powering, and i'd still keep the SINAD from the DX7, that seems to be a better solution, or am i mistaken?
The A70 Pro would simply power the DX7?

 

[JIW]

Later this year I will be releasing a dedicated headphone amplifier called Valencia. It will be able to drive these headphones with no problem. Preliminary specs are as follows:
Gain: 14dB
SNR: > 134dB (A-weighted)
Output Power (RMS):
32 ohm -- 15.12W
64 ohm -- 7.56W
150 ohm -- 3.24W
300 ohm -- 1.62W
600 ohm -- 0.81W

I will post full measurements when they are available.

P.S.
Mod House Audio currently has a prototype they are testing.

Output voltage being the same at 32 Ohm as 600 Ohm at (15.12*32)^.5 = 22.0 V RMS suggests high current output. At least (15.12/32)^.5 = 687.4 mA RMS. What is the power at 16 Ohm? Twice that at 32 Ohm or less?

With 14 dB gain, 10*log10(15.12*32) - 14 = 12.85 dBV or 4.39 V RMS input is required for full power output. This seems a lot since many balanced DACs only output 4 V RMS at 0 dBFS. Nevermind single ended connection being typically 2 V RMS at 0 dBFS. Why did you choose gain this low given the power the amp can produce?

 

[JIW]

Still learning to differentiate.
The "-1.06dB less" for me looked like it could have been connected to the SINAD, hence the question.
But if the A70 Pro would help with the powering, and i'd still keep the SINAD from the DX7, that seems to be a better solution, or am i mistaken?
The A70 Pro would simply power the DX7?

That is the difference in level at maximum power, i.e. how much louder or quieter the L70 will be compared to the A70 Pro at its maximum power.

The A70 Pro will power the headphones. The DX7 will give it the signal to amplify. The signal chain is DX7 -> A70 Pro -> headphones.

The SINAD from the DX7 and A70 Pro together depend on the volume setting and gain selection. The DX7 has a slightly higher SINAD as just a DAC compared to its headphone output.

 

[SicknessWin]

That is the difference in level at maximum power, i.e. how much louder or quieter the L70 will be compared to the A70 Pro at its maximum power.

The A70 Pro will power the headphones. The DX7 will give it the signal to amplify. The signal chain is DX7 -> A70 Pro -> headphones.

The SINAD from the DX7 and A70 Pro together depend on the volume setting and gain selection. The DX7 has a slightly higher SINAD as just a DAC compared to its headphone output.

Okay, so the power bit i think i got down then.

For the signal to pass from DX7 > A70 Pro > Headphones, does that mean that the Sinad (if played at the same settings as the DX7 currently are set to, which is Low Gain, and i run it mostly on -11 > -17dB) would decrease, as the signal is passed through another unit before reaching the Headphones?
And when you say it has a slightly higher SINAD as just a DAC, does that mean the SINAD would be at a higher sensitivity (if i've understood this correctly) than with the AMP as well?

Currently looking at a few possible solutions, and this one for sure does look great.
But i do enjoy playing music loud at times, for certain songs in specific.
Thus i'm very interested in finding a solution that would be able to do this with the least possible noise and of course distortion.
Some songs for reference, could be Susanne Sundfør - Mountaineers or much of Judas Prist in general.

 

[JIW]

Okay, so the power bit i think i got down then.

For the signal to pass from DX7 > A70 Pro > Headphones, does that mean that the Sinad (if played at the same settings as the DX7 currently are set to, which is Low Gain, and i run it mostly on -11 > -17dB) would decrease, as the signal is passed through another unit before reaching the Headphones?
And when you say it has a slightly higher SINAD as just a DAC, does that mean the SINAD would be at a higher sensitivity (if i've understood this correctly) than with the AMP as well?

Currently looking at a few possible solutions, and this one for sure does look great.
But i do enjoy playing music loud at times, for certain songs in specific.
Thus i'm very interested in finding a solution that would be able to do this with the least possible noise and of course distortion.
Some songs for reference, could be Susanne Sundfør - Mountaineers or much of Judas Prist in general.

When connected to the A70 Pro, you should set the DAC's volume close to 0 dB but you should consider leaving it at -3 dB to avoid intersample overs and control the volume on the A70 Pro. Gain on the DX7 is only for its headphone output not the line-out.

No, for the DX7 at full output SINAD of the line-out is higher than SINAD of the headphone output in low gain.

What headphones do you use with low gain and volume between -11 and -17? What are the volume and gain settings when you listen loudly?