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Amount of power needed for dynamic peaks?

CDMC

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For me personally, it doesn’t matter if the standard was revised or if it only applies to larger rooms, as it’s still the target I used, but as a general guideline, it’s good to know.

Something I’ve never really understood (maybe you can explain) is why does the same spl sound quieter in large rooms. Going strictly by the measured spl at my ear, shouldn’t 105db always sound like 105dB. I’ve heard the 75dB home reference before, but I’ve always calibrated for 85dB as 75dB doesn’t sound loud enough to me.

I don't know why the same SPL sounds louder in smaller rooms, not sure if it is reverb time or what. I wish I did. But the monitor calibration levels by room size from Mastering the Mix seem to give consistent volume for the room sizes. I use 74db for my desktop, 78-79 for my living room.
 

CDMC

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And you are right, in small rooms, lower levels are generally prefered. So as AAC just said, ajust dialog level at your convenience ;)

This is crazy talk, setting to a level without a calibration. :)

For movie and tv watching, my reference level is being able to hear the dialog comfortably. In fact, it is only in the past few months I turn on the speakers instead of the soundbar (a cheap yamaha I bought because it has great dialog intelligibility). I guess it is combination of not watching action films and not wanting to blast out of the house. I save the loud stuff for music.
 

CDMC

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This reminds me -- I think a lot of "amp power anxiety" would be alleviated if more amps had clipping indicator lights (and clipping protection) like the Benchmark AHB2. For example, most of my worry of amp power comes not from any lack of loudness from my system (it gets more than loud enough), but just worries that I might unintentionally be clipping either slightly (at loss of sound quality) or extremely during movie peaks (at potential damage to tweeters). This is mostly a theoretical concern I know, given data like that you've provided, but it still would be nice to have a clipping indicator on more amps.

The ironic part is a lot of amps had them in the 70s and 80s. It looks like the Hypex has the ability to run one, but not positive on that.
 

RichB

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The ironic part is a lot of amps had them in the 70s and 80s. It looks like the Hypex has the ability to run one, but not positive on that.

The Hypex based AT5xxNC amplifiers have peak indicators but I don't know how they are implemented.

- Rich
 

NTK

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The Hypex based AT5xxNC amplifiers have peak indicators but I don't know how they are implemented.

- Rich
The Hypex modules come with built-in clip indication. Below is from the NC500 module datasheet.
clip1.JPG clip2.JPG
 

CDMC

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aac

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This is crazy talk, setting to a level without a calibration. :)

For movie and tv watching, my reference level is being able to hear the dialog comfortably. In fact, it is only in the past few months I turn on the speakers instead of the soundbar (a cheap yamaha I bought because it has great dialog intelligibility). I guess it is combination of not watching action films and not wanting to blast out of the house. I save the loud stuff for music.

It's how ATSC recommends doing it if you don't have access to SPL meter:

If you can’t use the band-limited pink noise to calibrate the monitor levels, the speech sample
referred to in Section 10.4 may be used to set the monitor level appropriately. Make sure that the
signal path from the device playing back the speech sample to the input to the monitor system is
set to unity gain. Edit the mono source file into the single channel for mono playback, into left and
right at –3 dB each for stereo playback, and into the center channel of 5.1-channel and other
multichannel systems. Play back the speech sample, and adjust the master monitor gain to put the
speech at your most comfortable listening level. Since the loudness of the speech sample is -24
LKFS, programs mixed so that the anchor program material such as dialogue matches this level
will have approximately the same loudness.
http://www.atsc.org/refs/a85/Speech_left_Ch-20dB.wav

So not crazy talk at all, it's how you are supposed to do it
 

echopraxia

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levimax

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If you are DIY oriented and have a few extra parts around you can built this "Peak Voltage & Current detector" https://sound-au.com/project191.htm
and be able to tell exactly how much peak voltage AND current is being used by your loudspeakers for what ever level and style of music you like. No guessing no assumptions.
 

NTK

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Any idea how it would be implemented?
Open collector is a very common electrical output type. It basically acts like a very small indicator switch, but with low current capacity (in the case of the NC500, 1 mA, probably insufficient to drive a LED with enough brightness). It is very easy to add a driver to increase the capacity to drive basically anything you want.

The real difficulty (for DIYers or modders) is to access the signal buried in the 36 pin connector. If the manufacturer plans ahead, it is trivial to add a clipping indicator -- at most a buck or two of added material cost (an LED, connectors, some wires to the front panel, a few very cheap components on the PCB). Hypex has a clipping LED on its NC500 eval board.

clip3.JPG clip4.jpg
 

DonH56

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If you are DIY oriented and have a few extra parts around you can built this "Peak Voltage & Current detector" https://sound-au.com/project191.htm
and be able to tell exactly how much peak voltage AND current is being used by your loudspeakers for what ever level and style of music you like. No guessing no assumptions.

That's pretty cool! I saw this recently and thought of making something with it: https://www.mouser.com/new/broadcom...tm_id=255788&dclid=CKjglPDyousCFcjbwAodgkUCdA

Unfortunately my free time is nil lately.
 

RichB

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Open collector is a very common electrical output type. It basically acts like a very small indicator switch, but with low current capacity (in the case of the NC500, 1 mA, probably insufficient to drive a LED with enough brightness). It is very easy to add a driver to increase the capacity to drive basically anything you want.

The real difficulty (for DIYers or modders) is to access the signal buried in the 36 pin connector. If the manufacturer plans ahead, it is trivial to add a clipping indicator -- at most a buck or two of added material cost (an LED, connectors, some wires to the front panel, a few very cheap components on the PCB). Hypex has a clipping LED on its NC500 eval board.

View attachment 78633 View attachment 78634

I'd love a device like this but have zero skills for the DIY.

- Rich
 

patate91

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Can you guys provide songs that have the highest peak (relative to average level of the song )

Dyamic Range rating doesn't fit very since it calculate the lowest relative to highest.
 

RichB

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Can you guys provide songs that have the highest peak (relative to average level of the song )

Dyamic Range rating doesn't fit very since it calculate the lowest relative to highest.

This is a good resource for searching for music that you like. Also, J River does DR analysis on your library.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/

There are different methods for computing dynamic range. I find DR database to correlate better than level normalizing method used by the EU.

- Rich
 

patate91

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This is a good resource for searching for music that you like. Also, J River does DR analysis on your library.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/

There are different methods for computing dynamic range. I find DR database to correlate better than level normalizing method used by the EU.

- Rich

Like I said dynamic range look for the variability lowest highest. I'm looking for high spl peak. How many tracks produce more than 10, 15 or 20 db peaks relative to average. To calculate how much power needed I think it's a good idea to know if music tracks produce those peaks. (It seems frequent for movies)
 

RichB

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Like I said dynamic range look for the variability lowest highest. I'm looking for high spl peak. How many tracks produce more than 10, 15 or 20 db peaks relative to average. To calculate how much power needed I think it's a good idea to know if music tracks produce those peaks. (It seems frequent for movies)

With a digital source, peak is easy. Most popular music will be at or near 0 dBFS, or full scale.
This represents the maximum power. If you follow the process Outlined in this post, you can create a power usage spreadsheet that corresponds to your listening preferences.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ed-for-dynamic-peaks.15278/page-5#post-486635

For example, in system -16 on the processors can use up to 101 of power and produce up to 101 dB SPL.
The more compressed sources tend to be record at near 0 dBFS so this is the power.
A very dynamic symphonic recording at 16 may be much softer in passages but also can use only 101 watts for 101 dB.

If you create your own spreadsheet you can match your listening preferences to the power requirements.
Of course non of this takes into account the capabilities of a system to produce the output at different frequencies.
IMO distortion influences maximum tolerable volume. The higher the distortion, the lower the tolerable volume. For example, the speaker on my iPhone is not very loud and I cannot tolerate maximum volume.

- Rich
 

patate91

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With a digital source, peak is easy. Most popular music will be at or near 0 dBFS, or full scale.
This represents the maximum power. If you follow the process Outlined in this post, you can create a power usage spreadsheet that corresponds to your listening preferences.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ed-for-dynamic-peaks.15278/page-5#post-486635

For example, in system -16 on the processors can use up to 101 of power and produce up to 101 dB SPL.
The more compressed sources tend to be record at near 0 dBFS so this is the power.
A very dynamic symphonic recording at 16 may be much softer in passages but also can use only 101 watts for 101 dB.

If you create your own spreadsheet you can match your listening preferences to the power requirements.
Of course non of this takes into account the capabilities of a system to produce the output at different frequencies.
IMO distortion influences maximum tolerable volume. The higher the distortion, the lower the tolerable volume. For example, the speaker on my iPhone is not very loud and I cannot tolerate maximum volume.

- Rich


I created this thread regarding listening level :

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ge-spl-for-music-listening.15454/#post-491439
 

echopraxia

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The higher the distortion, the lower the tolerable volume. For example, the speaker on my iPhone is not very loud and I cannot tolerate maximum volume.
This has proven to be quite true in my experience, from many examples.

It leads me to wonder also how audible distortion might be at even moderate listening levels, with high dynamic range music.

I wonder also to what extent our THD scores may not be accurately representing what we hear given that higher order harmonics are far more audible (or at least objectionable) than lower order harmonics.

I wonder if we have research on the audibility of different harmonic orders and whether we could design a psychoacoustically weighted THD and IMD metric that reflects this.
 

patate91

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I asked on a forum with pros (mixing and mastering), it appears that crest factor is about 10 to 20 db (C).
 

patate91

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An interesting read about the crest factor :

" ... With that in mind, let’s think about the crest factor of something a little more middle-of-the-road: a punchy, well-balanced mix, without much limiting. At the risk of sounding cliche, I’m going to suggest something (really, almost anything) from Steely Dan’s catalog. What we’ll see is that during sparser sections, like verses or solos, the crest factor typically hovers between 12–15 dB, while during denser sections like verses with stacked vocals, the values will come down to the 9–12 dB range. ...)


https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/wh..._medium=social&utm_campaign=What_Crest_Factor
 
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