Amir's subjective speaker rankings

[billyjoebob]

Why do you feel they have nothing to gain? They know the longer it sits in your house, the less likely you are to return it.

The people on the forum are the ones with nothing to gain. Do you ever feel skepticism of ANY claims?

Boy you go right for the throat!
Kinda understand the civility culture here.
ANYWAY.......
I am skeptical of any claim.
I dont understand why my speaker maker offers a 60 day return, and says to give them approx 10 days to settle in. Does not seems like an unreasonable request from the person (not company) who actually built my speakers.
But forgive me.
Everyone on this forum seems to know better.

Edit: not everyone sorry.

 

[Everett T]

Boy you go right for the throat!
Kinda understand the civility culture here.
ANYWAY.......
I am skeptical of any claim.
I dont understand why my speaker maker offers a 60 day return, and says to give them approx 10 days to settle in. Does not seems like an unreasonable request from the person (not company) who actually built my speakers.
But forgive me.
Everyone on this forum seems to know better.

Edit: not everyone sorry.

If a manufacturer says "100 hours" break in, how many days does that translate into for the average consumer? It definitely isn't 10 days.

 

[billyjoebob]

If a manufacturer says "100 hours" break in, how many days does that translate into for the average consumer? It definitely isn't 10 days.

What.......
What does have anything to do with what I just said?
Where did 100 hours come from?
And why ain't it 10 days like I was told.
Do you know something I dont?

 

[Everett T]

What.......
What does have anything to do with what I just said?
Where did 100 hours come from?
And why ain't it 10 days like I was told.
Do you know something I dont?

The period recommend varies and many manufacturers claim up to two hundred hours. I wasn't speaking to your specific speakers, but breakin in general

 

[steve59]

I am curious to Amir's background and knowledge regarding science and the skill of measuring. On a strict measurement based review how does one determine whats inaudible? I haven't been here long but there does appear to be some cherry picking regarding electronics based solely on measurements that appear to be chasing '0's after the decimal point when anything behind the decimal point will be inaudible. In fact there so clearly shows an agenda on amir's reviews that I'm more likely to buy something amir votes no to. latest example the Project pre box s2 digital.

 

[Raindog123]

Anything that could be discussed about speaker burn-in has been discussed here, on 53 pages and in over 1,000 posts:

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

There are a lot of "everybody knows" type of rules in audio with one of them being that audio gear in general, and speakers in the specific, benefit from "break-in." That is, their performance improves after some time. This is mostly touted by audiophiles but manufacturers also fuel this...

www.audiosciencereview.com

(Even silly me chipped in with my silly opinion.)

 

[Doodski]

I am curious to Amir's background and knowledge regarding science and the skill of measuring. On a strict measurement based review how does one determine whats inaudible? I haven't been here long but there does appear to be some cherry picking regarding electronics based solely on measurements that appear to be chasing '0's after the decimal point when anything behind the decimal point will be inaudible. In fact there so clearly shows an agenda on amir's reviews that I'm more likely to buy something amir votes no to. latest example the Project pre box s2 digital.

It's all here. There are links to the infO.

amirm

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Raindog123]

It's all here. There are links to the infO

@steve59 …and here:

A bit about your host....

This is a bit about your host, Amir Majidimehr. I am writing this as to give more context to people reading my technical reviews and measurements. I have realized that without this context, many assume I am yet another blogger spitting out graphs. That is very true but let’s see if we can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[VintageFlanker]

In fact there so clearly shows an agenda on amir's reviews that I'm more likely to buy something amir votes no to

May I ask about the purpose of your presence here, then?

Are you better looking for bad measuring products to buy?

Makes perfect sense.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

Deja vu. Speaker break in has been thoroughly covered multiple times in this forum and uncountable times in other forums. Speaker marketing people appear to be the primary source of the audible speaker break in theory whereas speaker engineering people say slight changes from break in can be measured but are not audibly noticeable. Harman marketing folks wanted to promote audible speaker break in until Toole and Olive set up a blind test that showed no audibly noticeable change from speaker break in. This was documented in an earlier ASR post quoting Toole:

In parts of the audio industry, there is a belief that all components from wires to electronics to loudspeakers need to “break in.” Out of the box, it is assumed that they will not be performing at their best. Proponents vehemently deny that this process has anything to do with adaptation, writing extensively about changes in performance that they claim are easily audible in several aspects of device performance. Yet, the author is not aware of any controlled test in which any consequential audible differences were found, even in loudspeakers, where there would seem to be some opportunities for material changes. A few years ago, to satisfy a determined marketing person, the research group performed a test using samples of a loudspeaker that was claimed to benefit from “breaking in.” Measurements before and after the recommended break-in showed no differences in frequency response, except a very tiny change around 30–40 Hz in the one area where break-in effects could be expected: woofer compliance. Careful listening tests revealed no audible differences. None of this was surprising to the engineering staff. It is not clear whether the marketing person was satisfied by the finding. To all of us, this has to be very reassuring because it means that the performance of loudspeakers is stable, except for the known small change in woofer compliance caused by exercising the suspension and the deterioration—breaking down—of foam surrounds and some diaphragm materials with time, moisture, and atmospheric pollutants.

It is fascinating to note that “breaking-in” seems always to result in an improvement in performance. Why? Do all mechanical and electrical devices and materials acquire a musical aptitude that is missing in their virgin state? Why is it never reversed, getting worse with use? The reality is that engineers seek out materials, components, and construction methods that do not change with time. Suppose that the sound did improve over time as something broke in. What then? Would it eventually decline, just as wine goes “over the hill”?

Do Audio Speakers Break-in?

And no, I'm not going to finance a study. @snurf, You too. I wasn't asking for finance. You should do the investigation You long for so desperately: By Your Own. Design a study. Make sure it complies to scientific standards. Discuss with peers. Publish results. It is on You alone. Because im...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Paolo]

On a strict measurement based review how does one determine whats inaudible?

You shouldn’t. Just like you won’t find an explanation on how to read the Frequency Response graph on every single review.
But if one is serious about the science behind certain measurements you can start learning here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?forums/audio-reference-library.30/

 

[Raindog123]

As to

In fact there so clearly shows an agenda on amir's reviews that I'm more likely to buy something amir votes no to.

….it has been discussed numerous times as well, for example in:

Amir recommendation criticism

I want to say that I really like that this site based on measurements and no feelings or opinions and I really appreciate Amir time and efforts to review and measure all those spekakers but..... How can JBL and Revel get recommended? 3.8k$ JBL with 4.9 reommended. 1.6k$ Revel with 4.9...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So, if I may, the consensus here generally is: “No, Amir is not perfect. But he is very knowledgeable, generally impartial, and mostly unbiased. But most importantly, he continuously tirelessly performs very valuable audio equipment measurements, literally “day and night”. And those “objective” (like in “numerical, reproducible by other analysts”) measurements are the staple of the ASR reviews. You can totally ignore Amir’s “opinion on/recommendation of the product”, you can ignore those cute panthers - but the data, the graphs will still be there! And you personally (or with the help of other experts) can dig to the bottom of it - to know what to expect from the item… and then get hold of it and listen with your own ears!”

 

[strummr]

Oh I thought we were ranking Amir... nevermind um.. 9/10 (-1 pt for not having measured Salon 2s yet)

lol... in that case, I would give Amir a solid 7 for execution, and he can get the last 3 points if he tests the equipment that matter only to me, AND, I am happy with the results.

 

[watchnerd]

My rating of Amir as a reviewer (and I question my qualifications for so doing) is that Amir's reviews pay more attention to the measurements rather than audibility. For example a SINAD of -60dB is quite adequate for transparency, -80dB far more so, yet devices that do less that -100dB get marked down. I personally don't care about anything being SOTA, just adequate for transparency. I'm much more interested in the breakdown, looking at build quality and serviceability. Through-hole components rate much higher than the now ubiquitous surface mount components. Unfortunately, we don't get breakdowns of every review, understandable as they're members' own property.

Similarly with loudspeakers. It's unfortunate, but understandable that Amir rarely measures large loudspeakers, but small standmounts are nothing I have any interest in. Ditto headphones and their amplifiers. Necessary at times, but not anything I could care less about.

Overall, this site is a wonderful resource, and FAR FAR better than any commercial site, but it's necessary and understandable limitations are frustrating.

S.

Yeah.

It's a different kind of irrationality than pure subjectivism.

Despite the objective inaudibility of some differences, the ASR community is rife with measurbation.

 

[steve59]

May I ask about the purpose of your presence here, then?

Are you better looking for bad measuring products to buy?

Makes perfect sense.

My purpose is to find the playground with the most kids. Right now ASR is very active and it's winter in chicago. This forum like most has levels of intensity where the most devout would put the forum founder on a pedestal taking every word as ultimate truth. It's also good to know which direction the wind's blowing as these things tend to cycle.

As to looking for bad reviews to buy products? It was chance that I landed on the Project pre box s2 digital and found it took somewhere around 6 pages of mocking the very existence of such a pos b4 Amir amended his findings but to little too late. I don't blame Amir for the silly slamming we as children do when he first posted his negative review but the product did work as advertised and those first several pages are longer than the modern attention span.

As an outsider looking in Amir is trying to fit more hours in a day than there are and so may miss something some buyers find trivial that I find important like how it sounds? At what point do specific deviations from flat become audible and how will it apply to the way I use it? all these things are a lot to ask and I didn't think asking for some background from a reviewer gaining so much popularity was wrong.

 

[Everett T]

I am curious to Amir's background and knowledge regarding science and the skill of measuring. On a strict measurement based review how does one determine whats inaudible? I haven't been here long but there does appear to be some cherry picking regarding electronics based solely on measurements that appear to be chasing '0's after the decimal point when anything behind the decimal point will be inaudible. In fact there so clearly shows an agenda on amir's reviews that I'm more likely to buy something amir votes no to. latest example the Project pre box s2 digital.

I think he does a good job at pointing out inaudible measurements. The problem is hard to translate into real world as we all hear a bit differently. So an audible issue might not effect all listeners the same or at all.

If you take some time and do some of the online listening tests that are out there, you can probably get a baseline for your hearing and apply that to purchases based on measurements and features.

Sometimes it's a fine line, other times it's not. Most importantly, enjoy the hobby.

 

[Raindog123]

This forum like most has levels of intensity where the most devout would put the forum founder on a pedestal taking every word as ultimate truth. It's also good to know which direction the wind's blowing as these things tend to cycle.

With all due respect, I think this is a simplistic stereotypical bull.

[Just like many here,] I consider myself a humble devoted ASR follower. Yet I do cross swords with Amir, when I feel I should - like here (or on the infamous MQA, but let's don't go there). Again, personally I do deeply respect Amir _because_ of what he does. And _how_ he does it passes my personal checks. And yes, Amir definitely _is_ a bit of a primadonna - here, I've said it - but it is usually a required quality to carry a popular forum and the workload he does!

 

[steve59]

I'm getting a feel for the place and while I don't consider myself an antagonist my wife does. I'll do my best here.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm getting a feel for the place and while I don't consider myself an antagonist my wife does. I'll do my best here.

Dude, you've been here 2 years already.

 

[ahl]

I am curious to Amir's background and knowledge regarding science and the skill of measuring. On a strict measurement based review how does one determine whats inaudible? I haven't been here long but there does appear to be some cherry picking regarding electronics based solely on measurements that appear to be chasing '0's after the decimal point when anything behind the decimal point will be inaudible. In fact there so clearly shows an agenda on amir's reviews that I'm more likely to buy something amir votes no to. latest example the Project pre box s2 digital.

He is presenting you with measurements. Make your own conclusions.