Amir, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't:

[Jinjuku]

I don't need to debunk anything to have awareness that there is a culture problem here or call it out. Sorry it hurts you so much to be on the receiving end of that.

Expensive for what is it at MSRP, last year? Maybe. I was in the market for a $700-$800 receiver, went with the T758 for $1000, and I'm not looking back. It sounds better than any Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, or Yamaha I could have bought at that price point.

FWIW Dirac is a pretty big selling point. It's miles ahead of Audyssey XT32 and the Audyssey mic can't even resolve timing differences properly, but I'll bet you didn't know that because you're too busy jerking-off to Amir's reviews.

What culture problem? That we like SOME data.

Listen, you're an idiot.

 

[amirm]

Let's dial down the personal remarks please.

 

[Sancus]

but I'll bet you didn't know that because you're too busy jerking-off to Amir's reviews.

You're not doing yourself any favors with these sorts of aggressive ad hominems.

I don't see people making decisions based on inaudible engineering issues to be "worship" or a "culture problem". It's more typically just a misunderstanding(because it takes some effort to read up on what exactly is and isn't audible) or people who genuinely just want the better-engineered option. Which they absolutely should, assuming price is the same.

There is pride of ownership in products with good engineering, same as aesthetics, footprint and weight, among other things.

 

[Purité Audio]

I don't need to debunk anything to have awareness that there is a culture problem here or call it out. Sorry it hurts you so much to be on the receiving end of that.

Expensive for what is it at MSRP, last year? Maybe. I was in the market for a $700-$800 receiver, went with the T758 for $1000, and I'm not looking back. It sounds better than any Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, or Yamaha I could have bought at that price point.

FWIW Dirac is a pretty big selling point. It's miles ahead of Audyssey XT32 and the Audyssey mic can't even resolve timing differences properly, but I'll bet you didn't know that because you're too busy jerking-off to Amir's reviews.



I doubt you could reliably A/B any "poorly measuring" DAC against "the fine engineering option" ...And that's kind of my point: Why waste the time and money on ghosts?

The question is always one of audibility, the product often has to be extremely poorly designed before its deficiencies are actually audible, I prefer fine engineering.
Keith

 

[raistlin65]

Expensive for what is it at MSRP, last year? Maybe. I was in the market for a $700-$800 receiver, went with the T758 for $1000, and I'm not looking back. It sounds better than any Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, or Yamaha I could have bought at that price point.

I don't see how you could possibly know that.

I don't need to debunk anything to have awareness that there is a culture problem here or call it out. Sorry it hurts you so much to be on the receiving end of that.

Based on your other statement I quoted, it's a good bet you don't understand the culture here.

 

[doodlebro]

You're not doing yourself any favors with these sorts of aggressive ad hominems.

I don't see people making decisions based on inaudible engineering issues to be "worship" or a "culture problem". It's more typically just a misunderstanding(because it takes some effort to read up on what exactly is and isn't audible) or people who genuinely just want the better-engineered option. Which they absolutely should, assuming price is the same.

There is pride of ownership in products with good engineering, same as aesthetics, footprint and weight, among other things.

You're not doing yourself any favors taking my comments out of context either. All I did was bring up how often the reviews are used in unrealistic ways, that seems to have rustled more than a few jimmies.

Call it what you want, but the way that Amir's reviews and broad strokes are regurgitated without understanding their usefulness in the real world is definitely a sore spot within this community. Fuck me for calling it out.

 

[Dimitri]

...any moment now...
so before this threrad gets locked....why are you here in the firstplace ?

 

[Thomas savage]

We could do without the bad language , opinions on opinions wow lol .

I'm sure we all have more worthwhile things to do than this.

No more bad tempered posts please.

 

[doodlebro]

Let's requote my initial post, which added some perspective to the thread that nobody had really touched on...

Sounds more like he's making commentary on the way that Amir's reviews are used unrealistically... That's us, not Amir.

This board definitely has a culture problem regarding the way it interprets Amir's reviews... Too much worship and not enough "Hey, how does that work out in the real world?"

Are we really going to act like the users here do enough "Hey, how does that work out in the real world?" ...?

I have to try to find those nuggets and there's very few of us who do not immediately jump on the bandwagon when reviews are released.

Sometimes a little skepticism is healthy.

 

[Jinjuku]

BTW if I purchased a DAC, in part based on measurements, it doesn't preclude me from subjective evaluation.

 

[Wes]

This post is in Audiophile Style's new, separate but equal Objective-Fi subforum. (Background here.) I guess there the objectivists are viewed as the noise and the subjectivists the signal. Rarely read much there besides mitchco. Though every once in a while ogling the eye candy equipment is fun.

The Stylish Audiophool has decided that actual facts undermine his business model -- which is to encourage morons who buy expensive cables, etc. and to sell ads for those type of things.

 

[williamwally]

...
Are we really going to act like the users here do enough "Hey, how does that work out in the real world?" ...?

I have to try to find those nuggets and there's very few of us who do not immediately jump on the bandwagon when reviews are released.

Sometimes a little skepticism is healthy.

Nuggets, have you read any of the Neumann KH80 threads here?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../kali-audio-in-8-studio-monitor-review.10897/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h-80-dsp-speaker-measurements-take-two.11323/

642 posts in the first, 333 posts in the 2nd. I'd venture half to 75% were questioning or skeptical.

Many, many posts here, and even threads here, are trying to find out "how does that work in the real world" and many (very intelligent and studied and experienced) people here spend lots of time sorting through data, measurement, and studies trying to correlate measurements to how things sound in 'the real world' if no such correlation currently exists.

I feel like you haven't spent enough time reading through many threads here. Or perhaps troll?

 

[Wes]

Why do we care if we are confident in Amir's measurements and how we are using them for DAC choice? There is nothing in that gripe that discredits that.

He is continually criticized for not using his test gear "properly" - sunno if they ever give specifics.

My concern is that SINEAD may not capture all aspects of DAC or amp, pre-amp performance that affect SQ.

 

[doodlebro]

Nuggets, have you read any of the Neumann KH80 threads here?
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../kali-audio-in-8-studio-monitor-review.10897/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h-80-dsp-speaker-measurements-take-two.11323/

642 posts in the first, 333 posts in the 2nd. I'd venture half to 75% were questioning or skeptical.

Many, many posts here, and even threads here, are trying to find out "how does that work in the real world" and many (very intelligent and studied and experienced) people here spend lots of time sorting through data, measurement, and studies trying to correlate measurements to how things sound in 'the real world' if no such correlation currently exists.

I feel like you haven't spent enough time reading through many threads here. Or perhaps troll?

Seriously? How many products has Amir reviewed? You cherry picked one product as if missing that discredits my view. I'm not interested in studio monitor reviews, sue me. Considering we just started speaker reviews and Amir has no problem doing them twice, I think that's a bit of an extraordinary example.

Anyway, you've sort of proven my point because those are the nuggets of skepticism in a sea of bandwagon opinions across all of the reviews. Notice how that skepticism does not remain on his amplifier reviews, or receivers, or headphone DACs.

 

[williamwally]

...Anyway, you've sort of proven my point because those are the nuggets of skepticism in a sea of bandwagon opinions across all of the reviews. Notice how that skepticism does not remain on his amplifier reviews, or receivers, or headphone DACs.

Maybe because those are mostly a known quantity? If the other experts that read those reviews, and I'm sure you know those are on here, don't find any real objections maybe there aren't any?

What else would you suggest he test for?
What quality can a DAC or Amp impart on that audio signal that we cannot yet test for?

If established scientific knowledge says that: "x, and y" matter for sound reproduction, why do you want "h or j" tested? So if Amirm correctly tests Dacs/amps/receivers for everything we know that makes a real difference; what else is there to say on the matter? IE if it seems "worship" to you because no one questions the results of known quantities, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

If I'm going to choose a piece of equipment based on "inaudible benefits," I'd much rather those benefits be actual, objectively measured benefits rather than subjective, unmeasurable and imaginary benefits.

There's no problem with the culture here. Most of us are well aware of what is and isn't actually audible. There's nothing wrong with looking for and valuing great engineering no matter how cheap or expensive it may be.

 

[AudioJester]

OK, so if Iam reading this right - a member here who is also a member on another forum has started a thread on said other forum criticizing this forum. And now we have a thread on this forum dissecting said thread on other forum - which was initially criticizing this forum!

My hangover just got worse......

 

[BDWoody]

Or perhaps troll?

 

[doodlebro]

Maybe because those are mostly a known quantity? If the other experts that read those reviews, and I'm sure you know those are on here, don't find any real objections maybe there aren't any?

What else would you suggest he test for?
What quality can a DAC or Amp impart on that audio signal that we cannot yet test for?

If established scientific knowledge says that: "x, and y" matter for sound reproduction, why do you want "h or j" tested? So if Amirm correctly tests Dacs/amps/receivers for everything we know that makes a real difference; what else is there to say on the matter? IE if it seems "worship" to you because no one questions the results of known quantities, I don't know what to tell ya.

I'm not sure why you're so confused about my perspective on this. I don't have objections to what Amir is doing and I cannot say this enough. I have objections to the way that many of the users on this forum, but also across the greater HT community, interpret his reviews and attribute audible improvements to inaudible measurements. That's it.

Look, Amir is testing these devices at the limits of their performance to get much of his data and recommendation out. That's fine. I get why that pushes a greater sense of competition in the audio engineering field. But when you have people going around saying that a receiver is "abysmal" when it truly sounds much better than receivers that measure better with any piece of content you can throw at it, I'd say we have a culture problem stemming from the interpretation of these reviews.

All I'm asking is that people are more skeptical to their own understanding of what is occurring, because I rarely see that around here.

 

[Thomas savage]

OK, so if Iam reading this right - a member here who is also a member on another forum has started a thread on said other forum criticizing this forum. And now we have a thread on this forum dissecting said thread on other forum - which was initially criticizing this forum!

My hangover just got worse......

This is why I do most of my forum duties while sat on the loo, and or drunk.