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Amir, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't:

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Jinjuku

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Sounds more like he's making commentary on the way that Amir's reviews are used unrealistically... That's us, not Amir.

This board definitely has a culture problem regarding the way it interprets Amir's reviews... Too much worship and not enough "Hey, how does that work out in the real world?"

They're fucking used as data points.... That's the entire reason behind settling on a measurement suite as a protocol.
 

gene_stl

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This is a good thread to say "Thank You!" to Amir for all he does on this forum.

I pray that he won't wake up one morning and whilst washing his face, look in the mirror and say to himself, "Why am I doing this?"

I have a link to audiophyle stile but rarely go there. Usually only after someone here has pointed me to a thread.

And on another forum I recently had a minor flame problem with some flaming asshole who was trying to sell the membership a pair of $1,000 20 foot xlr cables. I took exception to the notion and the OP got nasty. He or the moderators had the decency to take the thread down. And the thousand dollar xlr s had a "list price of $3,600 but were frequently on special from the manufacturer at $1,800 and a raving bargain at $1,000" (he got no takers) so a virtual steal at the final $775. I had the audacity to point out that a 20 foot pair with neutriks was worth $40 retail. (with examples and diy)

He wanted to tell me I could not hear the difference and implied I would buy such cables if "I had the wherewithal" Boy wuz he barking up the wrong tree.

If Miska is a member here and disses this forum on other fora perhaps he should be banned. (I vote yes, get th fuck outa here!)
 
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Jinjuku

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I wouldn't mind Miska if actually made a point about it. Are the Chinese DAC's that have been measured here:

1. Ripped off/Derivative designs?
2. Are Chinese EE's incapable of accurate DAC, both digital and analog, design?
3. Is he pissed off that they aren't more expensive?
 

Thomas savage

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A guy has a opinion, who cares . Let's not get ugly and start slagging folks and other forums off .

Some people do make too much of the SINAD tables and there is a kind of Jarhead acceptance that can ride rough shot over some nuances in the measurements.

People want simple answers and that can foster a environment that's not as encouraging of learning as we'd wish.

You can't be perfect, you can't control how other people use the information provided.

It's easy to sit on the back seat and tear the driver down. The way these forums work for good or bad everyone's opinion gets a platform. As individuals I think we'd be well served in learning not to give them much credence rather than taking so many to heart.
 

Sancus

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This board definitely has a culture problem regarding the way it interprets Amir's reviews... Too much worship and not enough "Hey, how does that work out in the real world?"

Read the KH80 threads again and see how many people question the measurements(including me!), demand new measurements or different measurements or complain in general, sometimes very rudely, over what turned out to be pretty minor issues that were readily confirmed.

Too much worship? Lol.
 

doodlebro

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Read the KH80 threads again and see how many people question the measurements(including me!), demand new measurements or different measurements or complain in general, sometimes very rudely, over what turned out to be pretty minor issues that were readily confirmed.

Too much worship? Lol.

You're going to have to come up with more than one anecdotal example. What you describe is not mutually exclusive to the worship that is quite apparent across a majority of reviews here.
 

Purité Audio

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I can only think of one person who ‘worships ‘ Miska.
His mum perhaps , so possibly two.
Keith
 

doodlebro

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They're fucking used as data points.... That's the entire reason behind settling on a measurement suite as a protocol.

No, they're used as the end all, be all, absolute source of truth and it's very unrealistic. Just look at how often the NAD receiver reviews get thrown around when anyone suggests buying one.

Amir's data is great, treating it like digital gold is a step too far. It's one perspective out of many.
 

Thomas savage

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No, they're used as the end all, be all, absolute source of truth and it's very unrealistic. Just look at how often the NAD receiver reviews get thrown around when anyone suggests buying one.

Amir's data is great, treating it like digital gold is a step too far. It's one perspective out of many.
Well it's data from whats been measured, it's not really a ' perspective ' .

People interpret that data , it can contribute to their perspective.
 

wgscott

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No, they're used as the end all, be all, absolute source of truth and it's very unrealistic. Just look at how often the NAD receiver reviews get thrown around when anyone suggests buying one.

Amir's data is great, treating it like digital gold is a step too far. It's one perspective out of many.


I understand that something might measure well but for some reason, despite this, might not sound too good.

If something measures quite poorly (I have not read the NAD review), is there any reason (say, euphonic distortion) why it might nevertheless sound good to a majority of people (recognizing that "good" is rather subjective and individual)?
 
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Jinjuku

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No, they're used as the end all, be all, absolute source of truth and it's very unrealistic. Just look at how often the NAD receiver reviews get thrown around when anyone suggests buying one.

Amir's data is great, treating it like digital gold is a step too far. It's one perspective out of many.

Then DEBUNK his measurements. Or put them in another context, one that's of less importance, if that floats your boat.

The issue with NAD is it's expensive for what it is and doesn't have any performance gain over other options.

You tell me why his measurement are Digital Pyrite.
 

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If something measures quite poorly (I have not read the NAD review), is there any reason (say, euphonic distortion) why it might nevertheless sound good to a majority of people (recognizing that "good" is rather subjective and individual)?

Almost all receivers measured have a similar problem: They won't output the voltages that Amir uses as standard for testing stereo DACs at all or at least with remotely good performance. But when used below those voltages, the NADs(and many other poorly reviewed AVRs) are still within audible transparency for most, and they are one of the cheaper ways to get Dirac, and in general the benefits of RoomEQ completely overwhelm anything audible about the poor measurements.

This is pretty well accepted by anyone who bothers to read past the SINAD graphs. Which you should do. But it's a problem that is rather specific to the receiver reviews.
 

doodlebro

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Well it's data from whats been measured, it's not really a ' perspective ' .

People interpret that data , it can contribute to their perspective.

People take the measured data as the only perspective, or as a perspective that is somehow better than the rest and means the rest can be forgotten. Again, look at the NAD receiver twins for an example that just keeps on giving.

Fact of the matter is, much of what Amir gripes about in his reviews is not audible in the real-world. That is, listening to content like music and movies. I'm not knocking anything he's doing either, I think it's great work that means the manufacturers have to actually try again and can't just turn into Xerox/IBM marketing machines.

But my point here is that many take these inaudible gripes to justify apparent audible differences in their purchases. It's incredibly short sighted and misses the point of Amir's reviews entirely.
 

Purité Audio

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Differences may be inaudible, but personally I would always choose the fine engineering option.
Keith
 
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Jinjuku

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But my point here is that many take these inaudible gripes to justify apparent audible differences in their purchases. It's incredibly short sighted and misses the point of Amir's reviews entirely.

So you know everyone's eye sight?
 

beefkabob

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The following page is also great.
https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/the-best-version-of/
Lovely mix of subjective and objective Investigations.

That guy goes into way too much depth. I've usually found the differences in recordings don't matter quite so much, assuming one wasn't totally messed up. Also, in my loud car on the oem stereo at freeway speeds, the compressed track probably sounds better because I can hear more of the music.
 

doodlebro

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Then DEBUNK his measurements. Or put them in another context, one that's of less importance, if that floats your boat.

The issue with NAD is it's expensive for what it is and doesn't have any performance gain over other options.

You tell me why his measurement are Digital Pyrite.

I don't need to debunk anything to have awareness that there is a culture problem here or call it out. Sorry it hurts you so much to be on the receiving end of that.

Expensive for what is it at MSRP, last year? Maybe. I was in the market for a $700-$800 receiver, went with the T758 for $1000, and I'm not looking back. It sounds better than any Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, or Yamaha I could have bought at that price point.

FWIW Dirac is a pretty big selling point. It's miles ahead of Audyssey XT32 and the Audyssey mic can't even resolve timing differences properly, but I'll bet you didn't know that because you're too busy jerking-off to Amir's reviews.

Differences may be inaudible, but personally I would always choose the fine engineering option.
Keith

I doubt you could reliably A/B any "poorly measuring" DAC against "the fine engineering option" ...And that's kind of my point: Why waste the time and money on ghosts?
 
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