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Amir, we need your Salon2 spins

Tks

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Let's go bossman, how long you gonna keep stringing people along without telling them why?

Some people can't "unhear" the measurements they "see", to put it plainly
 

amirm

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I assume measuring the M2s would be just as difficult
They are just as heavy but much less slippery and less tall. As such, they would be easier to manage, in relative sense. We used to have a pair at work but no longer.
 

beefkabob

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So if we can end Covid, we can get the salons measured? Deal!
 

restorer-john

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@amirm Maybe just install a freight elevator like this from the upstair listening room (blow the wall out) to the bottom floor:

1600666623152.png


And get one of these for moving the heavy speakers to the Klippel

1600666771841.png


You'll need to rip up some of that vegie garden to put down a nice concrete pathway to the garage. ;)
 

restorer-john

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I have always wanted to have a forklift. This may be the opportunity. It will even be tax deductible business expense!

Watch this safety video first.

 

miero

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"Klaus has just passed his driving test for forklifts. But his first day on the job turns out to be the real challenge. Cruel but informative accidents happen. Only few survive the blood shed. A homage to industrial safety educational films."
 

beefkabob

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I think that forklift video is really more of a warning against poorly engineered warehouse shelving. There's absolutely no way that taking out one support should drag down such an immense amount of shelving. Idiotic.

I would single make or buy a little stairway, perhaps on lockable wheel. Lift, step, lift, step. 5 feet up. Done. A shallow ramp would do, but it's be harder to make and take up more space. I've thought of getting one of those tiny forklifts to get stuff off delivery trucks and up onto shelves, but it's really unnecessary.
 
OP
7

73hadd

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I read you loud and clear, no pressure. I'll bring it up again when "this" is "over" :)

Looking forward to the data! It should be interesting to see how they fit compared to the new Revel "Be" story.

Maybe it's not "over" but, what's the next step? Thanks @amirm !

(no pun intended about stairs/steps)
 

tah800

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Ok, here’s my take on Amir. I respect the fact that he really trashed some of the Chord products Almost every reviewer that critiques them gives them absolutely top marks. Amir, however, is highly critical of the Dave and especially that add on, the chord scaler. After that review I don’t see manufacturers running at him with their high end products.He does say,however, that he can only review what members submit to him.A lot of guys who have invested huge money in their gear wouldn’t feel good about it getting trashed. I know I wouldn’t. Just a couple of things he does that make me wonder a bit. Instead of doing comparisons with some lesser piece of gear and not referring to any brand I keep hearing the name TOPPING coming up. Check the number of videos you hear that name come up.. Another one I hear a lot is BENCHMARK. I also feel he is a big admirer of the HARMON group. Has anyone seen him trash a Revel product. Think he’s be willing to dump on his Salon 2’s if they didn’t measure up. Makes you wonder about reviewer’s If that highly touted Chord Dave and Scaler didn’t measure up. Why was it that none of these golden ears didn’t hear it. Maybe our buddy at GR research had a point. Just Saying. Art
 

amirm

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Ok, here’s my take on Amir. I respect the fact that he really trashed some of the Chord products Almost every reviewer that critiques them gives them absolutely top marks. Amir, however, is highly critical of the Dave and especially that add on, the chord scaler. After that review I don’t see manufacturers running at him with their high end products.He does say,however, that he can only review what members submit to him.A lot of guys who have invested huge money in their gear wouldn’t feel good about it getting trashed. I know I wouldn’t. Just a couple of things he does that make me wonder a bit. Instead of doing comparisons with some lesser piece of gear and not referring to any brand I keep hearing the name TOPPING coming up. Check the number of videos you hear that name come up.. Another one I hear a lot is BENCHMARK. I also feel he is a big admirer of the HARMON group. Has anyone seen him trash a Revel product. Think he’s be willing to dump on his Salon 2’s if they didn’t measure up. Makes you wonder about reviewer’s If that highly touted Chord Dave and Scaler didn’t measure up. Why was it that none of these golden ears didn’t hear it. Maybe our buddy at GR research had a point. Just Saying. Art
Some of you should get Pulitzer award for the fiction you write. I have not at all dumped on Chord DACs. Here is an example:
Conclusions
Putting aside the functionality and look of the unit, the electronic performance is generally excellent. [...] For multiple reasons, from design to cost and performance, the Chord Hugo TT2 is not for me so I can't recommend it. If you own it though and it is a sunk cost, then you have a high performance DAC+Amp so I see no reason to be worried about it.

Or:
Conclusions

As a portable DAC+headphone amplifier, the Hugo 2 has superb performance. As a Desktop product, its USB noise sensitivity is disappointing but otherwise performance is very good. Mind you, desktop products at far, far lower costs run circles around it. So if that is your application, I highly suggest you look elsewhere.

As a portable product, I can highly recommend the Chord Hugo 2. For desktop, it is a pass for me especially at the astronomically high retail cost.

On Dave, performance is fine; just not competitive. Unlike subjectivists reviewers, I can't make up statements; I have to go by what I can prove. And on that front, Mscalar objectively doesn't do anything for your sound. What do you want me to do? Rave about it just to make you and the company happy when the data says otherwise? Remember, I am not sitting here giddy that the company loaned me these expensive products unlike the reviewers you refer to. I got them from customers/members which puts no stress or obligation on me to praise them with empty validation.

As to Harman (not HARMON), I have been ruthless with their products that don't perform such as their ARCAM line:

Conclusions
After seeing rather poor performance form many AV products, many of us were holding hope that Arcam would do better. Company has a great heritage of caring about measurements and superb performance. Alas, whatever pedigree was there, is no longer found. Maybe they and us are victim of one million logos on these devices, forcing the project to be mostly software/firmware development and hardware execution has become an afterthought. Regardless, for a multi-thousand dollar device, our expectation should be very well engineered AVR but we don't remotely get that.

In some sense, the AVR10 is worse than the last generation AVR390 which had great amplification stage. Seems like Arcam took the only thing that was good there and messed that up too.

Needless to say, I cannot recommend Arcam AVR10.
Of note, Harman has not supplied me one single piece of equipment to review. I have literally had to purchase my own samples including the expensive Revel F328Be. I asked for a review sample and they basically politely told me go lost.

That aside, it is preposterous to think that Revel speakers don't do well in the standards that they help established which we follow in the measurements. They have published decades of research into what makes a speaker sound good to the benefit of all. The notion then that the Salon 2 measures poorly smacks of lack of logic, and hugely so.

As to companies not sending me product, a $20K DAC was sent to me for testing by a high-end company. Alas, it measured very poorly and I let them know and cancelled the review (a courtesy I offer to companies that send me products).

Finally, the list of companies whose products get positive nod is extensive. They range from Denon to RME, Nuemann, Genelec, Focal, KEF, Sennheiser, etc. I have recommended nearly 400 products (1/3 of all that I review) so the notion that such a list only includes Topping is absurdly wrong. Spend a bit of time here before drawing conclusions that are so easy to dispute.

As to my Salon 2 speakers, they are not going to get tested right now. I have room full of speakers to test. Salon 2 spin data is already public anyway as measured by the company. Go ahead and show me another high-end speaker company who releases much measurements let alone full spin.
 

Newman

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As to companies not sending me product, a $20K DAC was sent to me for testing by a high-end company. Alas, it measured very poorly and I let them know and cancelled the review (a courtesy I offer to companies that send me products).
And what would you do if, subsequent to such a return and cancellation of review, an individual loaned you his or her copy of the same product, for review?

Just curious.
 

dfuller

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Ok, here’s my take on Amir. I respect the fact that he really trashed some of the Chord products Almost every reviewer that critiques them gives them absolutely top marks. Amir, however, is highly critical of the Dave and especially that add on, the chord scaler. After that review I don’t see manufacturers running at him with their high end products.He does say,however, that he can only review what members submit to him.A lot of guys who have invested huge money in their gear wouldn’t feel good about it getting trashed. I know I wouldn’t. Just a couple of things he does that make me wonder a bit. Instead of doing comparisons with some lesser piece of gear and not referring to any brand I keep hearing the name TOPPING coming up. Check the number of videos you hear that name come up.. Another one I hear a lot is BENCHMARK. I also feel he is a big admirer of the HARMON group. Has anyone seen him trash a Revel product. Think he’s be willing to dump on his Salon 2’s if they didn’t measure up. Makes you wonder about reviewer’s If that highly touted Chord Dave and Scaler didn’t measure up. Why was it that none of these golden ears didn’t hear it. Maybe our buddy at GR research had a point. Just Saying. Art
lol. I'm not even going to pick this apart.
 

tah800

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To defend myself a little. My overall impression of your review of the Chord products was positive in that paying over 15 grand for this product is ridiculous. Correct me if you did not say that the very expensive chord Scaler did nothing when combined with the Chord Dave. My overall take on that segment was wow after hearing all these glowing reviews which never mentioned the ridiculous price as an issue this guy is willing to say hold on its not all that impressive. I guarantee that anyone who saw that review would not be dashing out to buy it. On the Topping Dac. I am not questioning that it is a great little Dac. Often times when you are watching these different reviews,names of products which seem to be mentioned over and over give the viewer a sense that maybe this product is being sponsored. I am sure you have reviewed a lot of similarly great little dacs but like it or not that is the name that comes up repeatedly in you clips. In unbiased reviews the name of a great product should be praised but not used continuously. That’s simply my opinion.I believe when I mentioned Harman it dealt with the Revel products. I know that they deal with a lot of brands. I also know that they have been bought by Samsung. Good luck with high end audio research when that outfit takes over. One of the main reasons I was looking for a review of your Salons is I’m very close to closing a deal for a pair. I am guessing since you are a trained listener you already know how few flaws you should find. Know what, if I were you I probably wouldn’t bother.By the way I know you’re probably a little pissed at me but I can spell Harman. You should also know that I make dozens of mistakes everywhere in my posts. I have typed in ASR on searches but never seem to find these hundreds of reviews. I’ve never seen the one on Focal. I own the Electra 1038 BE’s Not my endgame for sure. Sure would be interesting to see if measurements indicate what I’m hearing . Can’t afford to ship them unfortunately. Art
 

amirm

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And what would you do if, subsequent to such a return and cancellation of review, an individual loaned you his or her copy of the same product, for review?
It hasn't happened. In a couple of cases, the person had not yet bought it and I warned them about my testing and they went a different way. If it does happen the way you mention, then I will retest and publish the report.
 

amirm

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I am sure you have reviewed a lot of similarly great little dacs but like it or not that is the name that comes up repeatedly in you clips.
Clips of what? Videos? If so, I have done very few videos on Topping. For reviews, the company sends me everything they make so they account for certain amount of volume. But so does their direct competitor, SMSL. What are you suggesting? That I penalize them for their willingness to send me products that perform great engineering just because other companies don't try to do what they do?

Let's remember that Topping was performing similar measurements to mine before I even started reviewing anything. Their first product I bought came with Audio Precision measurements. So it cannot be a surprised that they do well in my testing. They do their homework to measure and optimize their products for transparency. This is what many other audio companies should be doing but are not.

I realize lay intuition points to corruption here but you are posting in a thread about my $23,000 speakers. Don't you think similar common sense would say that I am not in need of pay offs that compromise my integrity?
 

DonH56

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Ok, here’s my take on Amir. I respect the fact that he really trashed some of the Chord products Almost every reviewer that critiques them gives them absolutely top marks. Amir, however, is highly critical of the Dave and especially that add on, the chord scaler. After that review I don’t see manufacturers running at him with their high end products.He does say,however, that he can only review what members submit to him.A lot of guys who have invested huge money in their gear wouldn’t feel good about it getting trashed. I know I wouldn’t.
Welcome to ASR, though from this post (in a thread about Amir's speakers, BTW) it sounds like you joined just to trash the place, and/or him. Manufacturers don't provide him with products, or rarely, we (the members) do, making this one of the most impartial sites around. A plus IMO.
Just a couple of things he does that make me wonder a bit. Instead of doing comparisons with some lesser piece of gear and not referring to any brand I keep hearing the name TOPPING coming up. Check the number of videos you hear that name come up.. Another one I hear a lot is BENCHMARK. I also feel he is a big admirer of the HARMON group. Has anyone seen him trash a Revel product. Think he’s be willing to dump on his Salon 2’s if they didn’t measure up. Makes you wonder about reviewer’s If that highly touted Chord Dave and Scaler didn’t measure up. Why was it that none of these golden ears didn’t hear it. Maybe our buddy at GR research had a point. Just Saying. Art
Topping did well in tests, but you can also find several threads discussing their issues (problems). Nothing's perfect. Benchmark components and Revel speakers have done very well on objective tests, but other Harman (not "HARMON") products not so much. Particularly their receiver/AVR lines, which have been ranked poorly by Amir (and others).

Having known Amir for years, I am quite certain that he would "dump on" his Salon2's if they did not measure up, but there are other reviews of them as well as Harman's data showing their technical performance is very good. I trust his credibility on this (and other things). And bet he did a lot of research before buying them... ;)

Since this is an objective-oriented site I'll just skip the usual diatribe on listening and such.
 
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tah800

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You seem to feel everything I say has a negative connotation It does not. I just thought the the repetition of the Topping name might carry a negative message. I watch all of your videos because I’m tired of listening to these eloquent reviewers with their sometimes made up comments on Stereo gear. I think I know why. What reviewer is going to start trashing products when he knows manufactures will stop sending him product. No product no business. I not sure where you’re going when you mentioned your salons. Maybe I look at it this way. You obviously are very impressed with them . You own them You are a trained listener. You haul them out do all your measurements and they turn out very poorly.And according to your theory if they measure poorly they should sound that way. Would you want to air that video. It could shoot all kinds holes in the old listening and measuring theories.I said that to you with all the best of intentions. By the way I have mentioned to a lot of my know it all friends that they watch some ASR videos instead of listening to some high end salesman tell you how good something sounds.Art P.S. On the lighter side. Have you ever given a little workshop on the graphs.It would really help just to show what a really good graph of something should look like and then one beside it showing flaws.
 

amirm

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You haul them out do all your measurements and they turn out very poorly.And according to your theory if they measure poorly they should sound that way. Would you want to air that video. It could shoot all kinds holes in the old listening and measuring theories.
Speaker measurements are authoritative but not 100% definite. There are characteristics of speakers which we can't fully quantify yet. I say predictive ability of measurements is about 80% for speakers. Indeed, I have liked speakers that didn't measure well in a few instances. And a couple that measured well but I did not like.

I have reviewed other gear I own that are expensive but don't measure well. Here is my Mark Levinson DAC (also produced from Harman) which is now retired: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mark-levinson-no-360s-dac-review.10842/

Conclusions
No, you would not run out and buy the Mark Levinson No 360S today.

All of this is for not as Salon 2 measurements are public and very good. Not perfect as I have measured others but definitely nothing remotely embarrassing. So the theoretical you pose has no merit.

The are only two reasons I have not measured them as I have repeatedly said:

1. They are extremely heave and difficult to move outside their box. I had white glove delivery for them when I first got them. To test, they would need to be raised up to a 5 foot platform, representing more risk. One wrong move and they could topple, damaging themselves and hurting someone as well.

2. I have so much other speakers to test. For the past two months, the system has been offline due to move, etc. I just got it operational and have a pile of speakers to test. I rather get those measured than test my own speakers just to satisfy conspiracy theories.

While both are surmountable, it is simply not a priority for me to deal with the effort and expense.
 
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