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Amir vs. Abyss: The Battle We Need

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danielmiessler

danielmiessler

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Shazb0t

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Apologies gents, I tend to get my back up when I see or hear 'peer review' as support for 'truth'. You may claim that my position is untenable or "stupid", but many in the sciences agree with my view. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I'll leave it at that.
What is your alternative to the idea of "evidence"? Your position is untenable.
 

HiFidFan

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What is your alternative to the idea of "evidence"? Your position is untenable.

What are you going on about?

I take no issue with "the idea of evidence", indeed I am a fan. So how is my position untenable?
 

Yuhasz01

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I propose an easier test

Request a whole bunch of manufacturers and DIYers to send you their unmarked cables. Then after you score them and upload the result in a password-protected zip file, tell them to reveal their asking prices.
I tried many cables unfortunately. Stock cables from manufactures and solid engineered cables(under 100dollars) shit all over the audio jewelery. It is science and good engineering design. Oh yeah, I am a RME adi-2dac fellow using it for headphone amplifier as well.
 

Jinjuku

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If measurement were all that mattered there would be no reason for double-blind testing, because that's subjective.

It would just be a matter of figuring out which measurements a particular person liked better.

This is my ask of the everything matters camp with regards to measurements: If you aren't willing to blind test, that is not trust only your ears, why should anyone else?
 

Jinjuku

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I was going to get:

- dCS Vivaldi DAC
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Pre-Amp
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Stereo Amp
- Focal Sopra No. 2 Speakers


80-90% ~ spent on speakers. You look to be electronics rich and speaker poor.

I could take an SMSL DAC, Hypex or Purifi based amplification and with the $$ saved just dominate the Focal's.
 

Jinjuku

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This is exactly the type of comparison I'm worried about with this forum. There are experiences in driving a $200,000 car vs. driving a $20,000 car. How the car smells. How stable it feels. How it feels when shifting. Etc.

If we were to measure with a checkbox, "Did the Porsche get you to point A?, and did the Kia get you to point A?", then they would both be "equal".

There are also experiences where taking $70K and instead of $20K on speakers and $50K on electronics yields better results.

A few things to get out of the way: You are hitting seriously diminishing returns on everything in your budget.

My experience, for what it's worth, the first plateau for speakers you hit is ~$5K. The next you are starting to get into the mid teens, and then it doubles up again to the $30K mark. It's a lot of spend for maybe some difference. Whether the difference equates to preference is another matter.

My next point given your budget: I could spend your $70K with $60K on speakers and $10K on backing electronics I can outperform your Focals.
 
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danielmiessler

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amirm

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He has them!
Yeh, you set me up for two more battles! To get ready, I have been working out just like Rocky so that when the time comes, I am ready!

 

Adibatla

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You say you read this site... Here we strongly believe in Genelec / Neumann / ME Geithain / etc. Active speakers with DSP.
They will measure better than what you listed above, while cheaper.
Measurements, measurements, measurements.

You beat me to it. I have several sets of monitors, two favorites are Genelec (Ones) and Focal (TrioBEs). Either pair I consider dancing within nanocrons of perfection as listening experience, and by no means inexpensive--but worth every penny. Pre-amp them with a Topping. Done.
For what seems like forever, marketers have tried to dissuade me in order to steer my tastes to conventional loudspeakers (which I still keep) with the expected "but those are monitors, for studios--you won't be happy" and for just as long I've ignored them. There are other excellent makes out there as well, such as Neumann, ATC, and Barefoot gets a lot of press lately, but I've never auditioned them.
Key thing is Amir is grounded in rationality and fact, very helpfully debunking oceans of sales dross and snake oil. I may not always agree with his final conclusions (I am very happy with my Phonitor 2, for example, thankfully absent DAC) but I always respect the diligence and data.
 

Adibatla

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Right, and if you are paying for high end cables, you are also buying the highest markup items they sell to help keep the vendor's doors open.

Aybss just posted a video about "Why Cables Cost So Much" It justifies the cost due to the precious materials used, the high cost of skilled labor to assemble them, and also the fact that some people will pay for nice things. As a lifelong seller of consumer electronics....I know that the first two parts are mostly bunk. Materials and labor make up a very tiny part of cable retail prices. It is true, some people will pay for nice things. Note the following exchange with Abyss in the comments:

Me: If you are discussing why nice cables cost so much there should be a discussion of your mark-up to sell price. Do cables have a profit margin of 100%? 500%? 1000%? More? How do these profit margins compare to the markup on Abyss headphones? Thing is, high end headphones are very competitive...people have choices and can easily compare value. With high end power cords it is much harder to compare. I sold stereos for years and cables were the highest mark up category by far. I understand you do not live in a castle....but that does not answer the markup/price question. How many power cords would you have to sell to become a castle person?

ABYSS Headphones: The more important question when your self-employed and can’t depend on a regular paycheck is how many do you have to sell to maintain a business, pay your employees, pay the suppliers, pay the rent, and keep the lights on, and in the end after taxes, health insurance, etc. have enough left to live on.

Me: Good Point. I believe you. I bet that was true of the stores I worked at too. I am not sure how my customer's would have reacted if I told them that we have to sell a bunch of super high markup cables in order to keep the lights on. But, if you are going to make a video about why cable prices are high, perhaps you should have included that part if it is the more important answer.

I do feel for AV business owners. Most of the AV retailers I worked for are out of business. On the other hand, the guys I seldom question on price are the installers/integrators/trunk slammers who I know will answer my call at 11PM on a weekend if I have a problem with my install. They deserve my loyalty. Others must compete on price. I think it was foolish for Abyss to address the topic of cable prices if they could not be honest about it.

Interesting, revealing, and as we've suspected, deeply problematic. #1--a business, any business, is the Customer. Without the customer, you have nothing (ancient GE mantra, one they clearly forgot themselves). Everything else is debt service, rented retail space, inventory, WIP, guys standing behind a counter, and overhead. #2--none of the rest is the customer's problem. It is not the customer's duty to solve those issues, though nice to help for reputable vendors, of course. The customer is there to receive goods and services at respectable value for a fair price. #3, those who've earned loyalty receive my money, plaudits and repeat business. Equivocating on cable with commensurate obscene margins is a pathetic practice, deserving of scorn.
 

markanini

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Abyss products are sold on the idea of high end. To that end they deliver using marketing and design. Abyss would have no use for being scrutinized on objective quality. Nor would the objective-minded community benefit from it, the measurements he have are just enough.
 

Adibatla

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Abyss products are sold on the idea of high end. To that end they deliver using marketing and design. Abyss would have no use for being scrutinized on objective quality. Nor would the objective-minded community benefit from it, the measurements he have are just enough.
more than happy with Utopias and the Sennheiser display case. No need for more, unless Stax beckons with Lambdas. If better exists, I can't discern it. Abyss comes off as absurd from a mile away.
 

ralphf

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Not quite. What they would do is pull out 30 pages of positive testimonials from *insert audio forum of choice* . "See!"

Just curious: why not prove who is right once and for all by conducting a proper study which would finally put the issue to rest? The bottom line is that the issue can only TRULY be answered by conducting such a study. All other evidence is merely circumstantial if the question is whether people prefer one over another. It is very unlikely, but entirely possible, that there are things at play that are not being considered. Again, very unlikely, but theoretically possible. The question is about personal preference and there is only one SCIENTIFIC way to put that issue to rest, as the original poster suggested. At one point in history, people could absolutely not conceive of a non-flat earth. To those who suggested it was round, all the flat earth people joked and laughed together. They used to push marbles off a balloon to show what happens when the marble reaches the end and then they'd say "i guess i'm falling too and just don't know it". I jest, but seriously, the issue is PREFERENCE, and there is only one way to decide it -- all else is strong evidence but not conclusive. Also, people here accept that the mind plays a lot tricks. What if some of these products DO actually make music sound better to a majority of people due to psychological aspects (of which we understand very little). Perhaps when we are happier with the look of our system, we appreciate sound differently. Who knows. Testing is the only way, imo.
 
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Jimbob54

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Just curious: why not prove who is right once and for all by conducting a proper study which would finally put the issue to rest? The bottom line is that the issue can only TRULY be answered by conducting such a study. All other evidence is merely circumstantial if the question is whether people prefer one over another. It is very unlikely, but entirely possible, that there are things at play that are not being considered. Again, very unlikely, but theoretically possible. The question is about personal preference and there is only one SCIENTIFIC way to put that issue to rest, as the original poster suggested. At one point in history, people could absolutely not conceive of a non-flat earth. To those who suggested it was round, all the flat earth people joked and laughed together. They used to push marbles off a balloon to show what happens when the marble reaches the end and then they'd say "i guess i'm falling too and just don't know it". I jest, but seriously, the issue is PREFERENCE, and there is only one way to decide it -- all else is strong evidence but not conclusive. Also, people here accept that the mind plays a lot tricks. What if some of these products DO actually make music sound better to a majority of people do the psychological aspects (of which we understand very little). Perhaps when we are happier with the look of our system, we appreciate sound differently. Who knows. Testing is the only way, imo.

I dont disagree. Same applies to harmonic distortion in electronics. BUT, and here is the rub, that doesn't help unless the result of the study is a profile that can be repeated for both FR and distortion. We already know the ideal FR, it's Harman for headphones. The distortion profile I'm not aware has been given the same attention. But then I'm just a punter others may know different.
 
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