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Amir vs. Abyss: The Battle We Need

Hephaestus

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So, question about everyone recommending these Genelec Active solutions:

Aren't these monitors rather than loudspeakers? Are we saying in this forum that the flattest (truest) sound is best, so let DSP and room correction and all this tech make it as flat as possible?

Essentially beating the audiophile types at their game by doubling down on truth.

Is that the approach here?

Loudspeaker or monitor? Neutral sound reproduction should be the goal for both.
I highly recommend that you read Dr. Toole’s book Sound Reproduction (3rd edition is the current one).

You will find a lot of valuable information from there and it will answer in many questions you may have what is important and what is not.
 

JustJones

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I don't think there needs to be a battle until Abyss addresses their problems they're having on the net with people complaining about ripples in their phones and ignoring complaints and perhaps quit selling wires that cost more than headphones. But that's just my opinion not the sites or any other person.
 

solderdude

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So, question about everyone recommending these Genelec Active solutions:

Aren't these monitors rather than loudspeakers? Are we saying in this forum that the flattest (truest) sound is best, so let DSP and room correction and all this tech make it as flat as possible?

Essentially beating the audiophile types at their game by doubling down on truth.

Is that the approach here?

One should use studio monitors in the way they are meant to be used. You could use them in a home listening room as well but would need room EQ for sure.
Monitors have a flat response under most well designed studio circumstances so the sound they have there is as tonally correct as possible.

Hifi speakers have different looks, may well not be as flat in the same circumstances as studio monitors at the same circumstances amd may well sound 'better' without room treatment in some living rooms.

Different use cases with different goals. Accuracy at determined circumstances vs enjoyable sound in living rooms.
That said you can use both under the same circumstances when both are EQ'ed to a similar tonal balance.

The goals of ASR members may vary. Amir measures them acc. to described circumstances and reports what he finds of them.
ASR members an do everything they want. Some treat it as gospel, others are simply informed and may or may not act on it.
 
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voodooless

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I dont think its about beating anybody- just getting the best out of what you have . Do you not agree?

I think it has more to do with honest reproduction. If you buy a painting, you also would not want to change the contrast of the colours or crop it to your liking. You would want to hang it the way the artist intended it. And if you don't like it, you don't buy it. For audio, it's obviously more acceptable to tweak it to your liking. A perfect reproduction is nearly impossible anyway, so some kind of subjective bias always takes place. And that is fine I guess.

Speaking of changing works of art: Whoever came up with the idea to use a green LED for those Genelec. That is really very old-school, but I'd like to see some different colour there.
 
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ahofer

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So we should spend all our money on a $200 dollar DAC and the rest in good active speakers? And this will equal or be better than a $50K DAC/Upsampler connected to $50K in preamp/amp gear connected to similarly-sized speakers?

Is that the claim? If so I'm so glad I found this place before buying my preamp and amp!

Yes. Speakers are the last realm where subjectivity is important, and measurements don’t tell the whole story. Part of that is room interactions, of course. But in terms of delivering an accurate electrical signal to your transducers, you just don’t need to spend the kind of money you are talking about to get state-of-the-art.

There aren’t as many active speakers to choose from, so I’d consider passives in your search.
 

ahofer

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This is super-high-quality feedback. Like 24-bit at least.

Seriously, thank you.

This new information resonates strongly with me, but there is a counterforce that is almost as strong.

Namely, I find it hard to believe that so many people spend tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars, after listening to multiple systems, and still haven't been able to collectively figure out a basic truth that diminishing return happens around $200.

Like you said, this hobby has been going for decades. And we still haven't figured this out? A super obvious truth that Amir is showing us right in our faces? Like nobody has simply recorded and compared $200 dollar equipment next to $200,000 equipment and noticed that the measurements were identical?

Consider these answers:
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...or-audio-thrive-in-a-competitive-market.9468/
 
OP
danielmiessler

danielmiessler

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For those that have or aspire to that kind of solution, yes. DSP and room correction pretty much essential for all transducers here, regardless of type. Even headphones.

I dont think its about beating anybody- just getting the best out of what you have . Do you not agree?

Why headphones? Don't they, by definition, take the room out of the equation?
 

voodooless

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Why headphones? Don't they, by definition, take the room out of the equation?

They do. but for one, there is no consensus on what is the best curve. And secondly, just about none adhere to any of those curves, so need EQ to get them somewhat close to the target. Have a look at a bunch of those reviews here, it's quite shocking how far off the frequency responses are most of the time. And if you want to be pedantic: your ear is also a room, just a very small one ;)
 

Fernando

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Like you said, this hobby has been going for decades. And we still haven't figured this out? A super obvious truth that Amir is showing us right in our faces? Like nobody has simply recorded and compared $200 dollar equipment next to $200,000 equipment and noticed that the measurements were identical?......

These tests have been done, with surprising results.
You just have to do a little searching on Google.
 

Jimbob54

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I think it has more to do with honest reproduction. If you buy a painting, you also would not want to change the contrast of the colours or crop it to your liking. You would want to hang it the way the artist intended it. And if you don't like it, you don't buy it. For audio, it's obviously more acceptable to tweak it to your liking. A perfect reproduction is nearly impossible anyway, so some kind of subjective bias always takes place. And that is fine I guess.

But being hair-shirted about no DSP is akin to hanging the painting in a terribly lit room covered in dust. If you have a terrible room, you're absolutely not getting either what the artist would have wanted, nor the best you can get fro what you have. Lose-lose.

But I'm not sure that is what the OP was getting at.
 

krott5333

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Yes. Speakers are the last realm where subjectivity is important, and measurements don’t tell the whole story. Part of that is room interactions, of course. But in terms of delivering an accurate electrical signal to your transducers, you just don’t need to spend the kind of money you are talking about to get state-of-the-art.

There aren’t as many active speakers to choose from, so I’d consider passives in your search.

Exactly. I think it's hilarious that people will change DACs looking for a different sound, or cables, and even amps.

Get lots of clean well-measured power (likely class D), a dac that measures well and has the features you need, some good enough OCC wires, and then focus on the speakers. The industry loves when people try to "pair" things, always changing this or tweaking that, when at the end of the day, it's really the speakers that matter and make a difference.
 

voodooless

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But being hair-shirted about no DSP is akin to hanging the painting in a terribly lit room covered in dust. If you have a terrible room, you're absolutely not getting either what the artist would have wanted, nor the best you can get fro what you have. Lose-lose.

There is no "but" here... That is precisely my point ;) If you want the best reproduction, you'll need to compensate for a few things. For one the room, which you can do by treatment, or by DSP. Both have limitations, and the best solutions employ both methods in tandem. However, you can also overdo it, and end up with something that is far away form the intention. One can of course still like it.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

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I was going to get:

- dCS Vivaldi DAC
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Pre-Amp
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Stereo Amp
- Focal Sopra No. 2 Speakers
So, obviously you have more money to burn than I will ever have in this life. Okay, congrats... (I think).

That being said: if you consider that kind of hardware, I think it should be a felony to completely neglect the room you will put it into. I see no budget allocation for acoustic treatment, nor DSP for room correction.

I know you want to straddle the line on whether AMPs and DACs can differ from each other while driven within spec while including psychological factors but man, you are thinking about the 0.001% of the sum total while neglecting at least 60% (your room).

To me, it's just flat out insane to spend that kind of cash on electronic components and buy (never thought I'd say this about a Sopra *chuckles*) modestly priced transducers and not give a hoot about the room.
 

Jimbob54

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So, obviously you have more money to burn than I will ever have in this life. Okay, congrats... (I think).

That being said: if you consider that kind of hardware, I think it should be a felony to completely neglect the room you will put it into. I see no budget allocation for acoustic treatment, nor DSP for room correction.

I know you want to straddle the line on whether AMPs and DACs can differ from each other while driven within spec while including psychological factors but man, you are thinking about the 0.001% of the sum total while neglecting at least 60% (your room).

To me, it's just flat out insane to spend that kind of cash on electronic components and buy (never thought I'd say this about a Sopra *chuckles*) modestly priced transducers and not give a hoot about the room.

Read lots on this for a year though. Seemingly never encountered the concept of room treatment, DSP or indeed diminishing returns in audio or the fact that price is no real guide to performance. Am I too cynical?
 

SimpleTheater

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Yes. Speakers are the last realm where subjectivity is important, and measurements don’t tell the whole story. Part of that is room interactions, of course.
100% this.

Everything, IMO, can be measured prior to hitting the speaker. For example, for just stereo, I don't believe any human can hear an artifact introduced by any of the top 10 DAC's measured, and using Benchmark amps, no one is going to hear anything but the source material prior to the headphones or speakers being used (assuming competent cables are being used and not some 100 yr old rusted garbage found in the back of a shed).

The speaker is where measurements are important but simply can't tell YOU what is best. How many rooms look like this:
1615815140179.png


Notice all lack of room treatment. What speaker IS NOT going to sound bright in this room. This person might prefer a speaker that literally drops off a cliff after 5 kHz.

And don't think money or knowledge makes a difference, this is from the KEF site.
1615815278185.png


If this is how KEF is telling people how to create a "STUNNING" sound setup, maybe they actually design their speakers to sound acceptable in such a crappy space.

Then you have idiots like me, who put together a treated room based on the hundreds of opposing viewpoints he read on forums like this. Did I add too much treatment, not enough, are my room dimensions screwed up?

Speakers are one area where measurements are helpful, but eq is king.
 

Helicopter

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100% this.

Everything, IMO, can be measured prior to hitting the speaker. For example, for just stereo, I don't believe any human can hear an artifact introduced by any of the top 10 DAC's measured, and using Benchmark amps, no one is going to hear anything but the source material prior to the headphones or speakers being used (assuming competent cables are being used and not some 100 yr old rusted garbage found in the back of a shed).

The speaker is where measurements are important but simply can't tell YOU what is best. How many rooms look like this:
View attachment 118337

Notice all lack of room treatment. What speaker IS NOT going to sound bright in this room. This person might prefer a speaker that literally drops off a cliff after 5 kHz.

And don't think money or knowledge makes a difference, this is from the KEF site.
View attachment 118338

If this is how KEF is telling people how to create a "STUNNING" sound setup, maybe they actually design their speakers to sound acceptable in such a crappy space.

Then you have idiots like me, who put together a treated room based on the hundreds of opposing viewpoints he read on forums like this. Did I add too much treatment, not enough, are my room dimensions screwed up?

Speakers are one area where measurements are helpful, but eq is king.
I like the coffee table placement in the Kef picture. Oh my, everything in that picture. I might call it 'getting an F in HT 101.' :p
 

tomelex

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Interesting replies here.

Ok, well then let me ask you this.

Are you in this forum (and Amir, I suppose) basically saying that spending more on stuff like cables and amps doesn't matter at all?

Like if we're trying to get transparency and quality, is it just about transmitting a signal? So it all comes down to NOT BEING ******, and then having good speakers?

Is there really no such thing as high-quality tube sound in an amp, for example? Like warmness? In a way that's desirable—at least to some?

Sorry for the n00b questions.

I'm just trying to figure out what the primary thesis is for the forum. I get that a) much of what's said in this industry is snake oil. Amir already has me there, 100%. I knew that by just intuition and seeing like 2 of Amir's vidoes.

But that leaves the question of what's left? If someone has X amount to spend on, what should they get?

I was going to get:

- dCS Vivaldi DAC
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Pre-Amp
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Stereo Amp
- Focal Sopra No. 2 Speakers

Is spending that much on a DAC a waste? And on pre-amps and amps? Is Amir and this forum basically saying I can get the same experience spending 10K total instead of like 70K (minus speakers?)

Not trolling. Genuinely curious where the line is according to this model of undertanding.

In my opinion, in your case, get these if you like they way they look and the perceived value you have for them, because you can, not because they are the most technically perfect things out there (but they are good gear for sure). There is no problem with spending your money in a way that makes you feel good. In the same way you select anything else on your perceptions of cost and perceived value. We all get to enjoy our hobby, even if you are a Noob at this hobby, no problem, you still need to satisfy yourself when you look at your system, looks plays into it as much as your bias does.

Enjoy your stuff whatever you get! Yes, if you get gear that in full measurements (not just the industry min standard measurement sets) is very similar to Dan's stuff, the same audible sound can be had for less money, but the experience you expect, well that's in your head and as I already said if you like it buy it.
 
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Cc-Mode

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Amir vs. Abyss: Or how to create an unnecessary buzz (opposition)
The Battle We Need: Is this an old or new business intelligence (big) tech?


The Measure is the measure: To be taken or left without belief or feeling and is business free !!!
 

617

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Why headphones? Don't they, by definition, take the room out of the equation?

With headphones, the 'room' is the space between the eardrums and the headphone driver - it is highly variable due to the position of the headphones shifting, and highly personal, due to the differences in ear shapes.

Headphones are for the most part incredibly primitive devices, containing no filters of any kind, so whatever signal is sent to the driver is spat out by the driver. This is a problem because engineering a driver with a specific response is way more difficult than designing a driver with a reasonable response, and then correcting it with active or passive filters. 99% of headphones work this way, although we are seeing some wireless models from Apple and Bose which have some correction, and of course there are equalization solutions for audiophiles.

So, if you take into account the fact that the response of the drivers is a mess, with all kinds of breakups and resonances in the treble, and the context it is playing in is highly variable, for example shifting the headphones on your head changes bass by 8db or something, and you have a situation that is somehow even worse and more chaotic than the worst room. At least the worst room doesn't change when you leave and come back.

The challenges to even measure headphones in a way which meaningfully correlate to listener experience are immense, but we've seen some progress made in this respect.

Long story short, it is very difficult to review and recommend headphones for others, and I wouldn't dream of using them as any kind reference, but they can be wonderful of course.
 
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