Amir vs. Abyss: The Battle We Need

[DanTheMan]

Three points. Standard audiologist tests only go up to 8 kHz. So getting tested requires special effort, not just getting a standard test. I was told in my last test that I had to go to a hospital to get full bandwidth test and that they only did such testing to scan for some cancers.

you should have stayed in the Bay Are. PAMF tests to 16kHz

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I have a tangible suggestion. Why not just get 2 systems? They are really not that expensive these days.

1 which measures well and is state of the art - maybe based on topping / genelac and another which is at the other end of the spectrum. Maybe valve-based. Maybe vintage. If you have no space then concentrate on a different headphone setup.

I personally have one highly accurate system which is needed for producing music and watching movies - which needs dsp and accurate great off-axis response, and another system in a different room based on a vintage jbl for when I want to mess with tonality.

The two are not mutually exclusive and great fun to compare.

So if your dcs sounds the same as the topping then you'll know the difference. This is what we were doing before amit came along.

You definitely caught the bug. Incurable.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

The discussion here on philosophy of science is idiotic and I modestly ask we stick to more tangible subjects.

Do you work for CNN?

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Sound like an "expert."

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

No "modesty" intended.

 

[Easternlethal]

One variable I have not seen mentioned with any kind of comparison - whether sighted, unsighted, blind, or double blind is the participants hearing ability.

This is actually phenomenally difficult because I've been in blind tests where I've gotten everything right and ones where I've gotten everything wrong (sometimes even with the same equipment). As the listener we choose what to listen for and can make wrong decisions. Amir explained it quite well in one of his videos where he explained that seeing the results of his test as he went along helped to inform him of what to listen for in the next round. I think we actually do hear almost everything the speaker puts out within the audible range, but our brain ends up filtering out most of it. It's just training really...

practising for my double blind

 

[GGroch]

......After a certain point, you're paying for status, aesthetics, exclusivity, luxury, but not for improved audio quality....and that's ok as long as you know which is which.

Right, and if you are paying for high end cables, you are also buying the highest markup items they sell to help keep the vendor's doors open.

Aybss just posted a video about "Why Cables Cost So Much" It justifies the cost due to the precious materials used, the high cost of skilled labor to assemble them, and also the fact that some people will pay for nice things. As a lifelong seller of consumer electronics....I know that the first two parts are mostly bunk. Materials and labor make up a very tiny part of cable retail prices. It is true, some people will pay for nice things. Note the following exchange with Abyss in the comments:

Me: If you are discussing why nice cables cost so much there should be a discussion of your mark-up to sell price. Do cables have a profit margin of 100%? 500%? 1000%? More? How do these profit margins compare to the markup on Abyss headphones? Thing is, high end headphones are very competitive...people have choices and can easily compare value. With high end power cords it is much harder to compare. I sold stereos for years and cables were the highest mark up category by far. I understand you do not live in a castle....but that does not answer the markup/price question. How many power cords would you have to sell to become a castle person?

ABYSS Headphones: The more important question when your self-employed and can’t depend on a regular paycheck is how many do you have to sell to maintain a business, pay your employees, pay the suppliers, pay the rent, and keep the lights on, and in the end after taxes, health insurance, etc. have enough left to live on.

Me: Good Point. I believe you. I bet that was true of the stores I worked at too. I am not sure how my customer's would have reacted if I told them that we have to sell a bunch of super high markup cables in order to keep the lights on. But, if you are going to make a video about why cable prices are high, perhaps you should have included that part if it is the more important answer.

I do feel for AV business owners. Most of the AV retailers I worked for are out of business. On the other hand, the guys I seldom question on price are the installers/integrators/trunk slammers who I know will answer my call at 11PM on a weekend if I have a problem with my install. They deserve my loyalty. Others must compete on price. I think it was foolish for Abyss to address the topic of cable prices if they could not be honest about it.

 

[ahofer]

I think he means that the specific discussion going on here is actually stupid. When one position is "Peer review more than just flawed. It is a virus that has infected the sciences" I am going to have to agree with 617 and welcome it to stop.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that assertion, although I think simply stating that the *position* is untenable, rather than the people or 'discussion', is better for the discourse.

Sorry, I don't mean to be the language police (and the debate was indeed an aside) but this is yet another thread where we have newcomers, and several have pointed out how hostile we can seem. If we can model civil discussion on their arrival...well, that makes us more persuasive, long run. Being persuasive, rather than "winning" arguments is our aim (right?), and dunks are what make Twitter unpersuasive and hostile.

 

[Bamyasi]

I don't really understand what is here to argue about. Come on, just heard on the news today a story about those "digital art objects" auctioned for hundreds of thousands of US dollars and they are not even material. Some random digital photo of a kitty cat has been sold for $400,000! Let them have their precious silver-gold-plated-star-shaped cables if they want them, at least they definitely have more real value compared to a pixelated cat image.

 

[ahofer]

I don't really understand what is here to argue about. Come on, just heard on the news today a story about those "digital art objects" auctioned for hundreds of thousands of US dollars and they are not even material. Some random digital photo of a kitty cat has been sold for $400,000! Let them have their precious silver-gold-plated-star-shaped cables if they want them, at least they definitely have more real value compared to a pixelated cat image.

Are they arguing that NFTs have intrinsic value? That's sort of the debate here - extrinsic (status/rarity/etc.) vs intrinsic (sound, in this case) value. Art is usually 99% intrinsic value anyway, unless fabricated from expensive materials, although the non-excludability of art-via-NFTs makes it super weird. The token is excludable, not the artwork.

 

[HiFidFan]

I think he means that the specific discussion going on here is actually stupid. When one position is "Peer review more than just flawed. It is a virus that has infected the sciences" I am going to have to agree with 617 and welcome it to stop.

I'm inclined to agree with you on that assertion, although I think simply stating that the *position* is untenable, rather than the people or 'discussion', is better for the discourse.

Sorry, I don't mean to be the language police (and the debate was indeed an aside) but this is yet another thread where we have newcomers, and several have pointed out how hostile we can seem. If we can model civil discussion on their arrival...well, that makes us more persuasive, long run. Being persuasive, rather than "winning" arguments is our aim (right?), and dunks are what make Twitter unpersuasive and hostile.

Apologies gents, I tend to get my back up when I see or hear 'peer review' as support for 'truth'. You may claim that my position is untenable or "stupid", but many in the sciences agree with my view. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I'll leave it at that.

 

[amirm]

I do feel for AV business owners. Most of the AV retailers I worked for are out of business.

Reminds me of a conversation we had with a major AV distributor for custom AV channel. He was suggesting that we source TVs through them. My colleague asked what their price *to us* would be relative to sale price of TVs at big box retailers. His answer was that it would be more than they would be selling them! So I asked him how that was a good business model for us? He said the solution was to match the price of the big box store and make up the loss by selling the customer fancy cables and extended warranty! We said no and left.

If you want to know why you can't leave an AV store without being hounded to buy cables and extended warranty, now you know.

 

[ahofer]

If you want to know why you can't leave an AV store without being hounded to buy cables and extended warranty, now you know.

Which also explains the endless "what amplifier are you using", followed by long faces of intentionally poorly concealed contempt.

"The (persona 3) isn't toppy, you just need the right amp and cables". "measurements don't tell the whole story" The Primaluna is just more musical and needs to be matched properly to speakers" (Audio Doctor)

"oh they do make a difference! you may not like it, but they definitely make a difference, everything makes a difference",
"well, no, I can't A/B it for you right now, but everyone can hear it, right Jim? (other sales guy)"(Park Ave Audio)

"The stands make it 20% better" (Andy Singer himself said that to me, he also argued with me about the published specs of my amp)

Props to the guy at Lyric who recommended the Wilson Sabrinas and said they should sound great with what I have. Although I didn't end up preferring them.

 

[Tachyon88]

Their cable videos seem like it was made for the people who already bought into the arguments. For everyone else who may of been on the fence, I dont see how this won anyone over.

 

[richard12511]

One should use studio monitors in the way they are meant to be used. You could use them in a home listening room as well but would need room EQ for sure.
Monitors have a flat response under most well designed studio circumstances so the sound they have there is as tonally correct as possible.

Hifi speakers have different looks, may well not be as flat in the same circumstances as studio monitors at the same circumstances amd may well sound 'better' without room treatment in some living rooms.

Different use cases with different goals. Accuracy at determined circumstances vs enjoyable sound in living rooms.
That said you can use both under the same circumstances when both are EQ'ed to a similar tonal balance.

The goals of ASR members may vary. Amir measures them acc. to described circumstances and reports what he finds of them.
ASR members an do everything they want. Some treat it as gospel, others are simply informed and may or may not act on it.

While the goals may be different, the solutions are the same.

The goal of a monitor is to give the engineer the sound that allows him to mix best. The goal of a hifi speaker is to give the response that is most preferred. By luck(?), it seems that the most neutral on and off axis response is the best way to achieve both goals.

Of course, some people will prefer a less neutral response, just like some engineers will mix better with a less neutral response. For the "average best", though, the target is the same.

The best hifi speakers I've ever heard are studio monitors, but there are hifi speakers that measure just as good and will sound very similar.

 

[Doodski]

Reminds me of a conversation we had with a major AV distributor for custom AV channel. He was suggesting that we source TVs through them. My colleague asked what their price *to us* would be relative to sale price of TVs at big box retailers. His answer was that it would be more than they would be selling them! So I asked him how that was a good business model for us? He said the solution was to match the price of the big box store and make up the loss by selling the customer fancy cables and extended warranty! We said no and left.

If you want to know why you can't leave an AV store without being hounded to buy cables and extended warranty, now you know.

Video was a low profit product since the low 1980's I'm guessing from experience. I stayed away from it and the big ticket video cams and other helical scan video stuff; too tweaky and technophile in the customer base. Always searching specs and requiring faxing requests and other time consuming stuff. Video dept req's 2x the sales to generate the same commission as home audio. I was attracted to home audio for reasons of speed of the customer base. It's varied and intriguing. Video is repetitious in the sales method.

 

[richard12511]

100% this.

Everything, IMO, can be measured prior to hitting the speaker. For example, for just stereo, I don't believe any human can hear an artifact introduced by any of the top 10 DAC's measured, and using Benchmark amps, no one is going to hear anything but the source material prior to the headphones or speakers being used (assuming competent cables are being used and not some 100 yr old rusted garbage found in the back of a shed).

The speaker is where measurements are important but simply can't tell YOU what is best. How many rooms look like this:
View attachment 118337

Notice all lack of room treatment. What speaker IS NOT going to sound bright in this room. This person might prefer a speaker that literally drops off a cliff after 5 kHz.

And don't think money or knowledge makes a difference, this is from the KEF site.
View attachment 118338

If this is how KEF is telling people how to create a "STUNNING" sound setup, maybe they actually design their speakers to sound acceptable in such a crappy space.

Then you have idiots like me, who put together a treated room based on the hundreds of opposing viewpoints he read on forums like this. Did I add too much treatment, not enough, are my room dimensions screwed up?

Speakers are one area where measurements are helpful, but eq is king.

At least the KEF one won't sound bright, given that there are no cables anywhere .

 

[krott5333]

I like the coffee table placement in the Kef picture. Oh my, everything in that picture. I might call it 'getting an F in HT 101.'

does coffee table placement make a big difference when it comes to sound? I have my coffee table right in front of my couch, between me and my speakers. Not halfway, much closer to me than the speakers.

 

[Helicopter]

does coffee table placement make a big difference when it comes to sound? I have my coffee table right in front of my couch, between me and my speakers. Not halfway, much closer to me than the speakers.

They can be really bad, but like anything in a room, it is probably best to get a measurement microphone and see what is actually happening befire you get rid of it. It is the opposite of what you want in principle, reflecting sound where you should absorb with a rug or something. I move mine or put a Tibetan sheepskin rug iver it for most listening. But then of course, you do need to put your drink and feet someplace.

 

[Tachyon88]

@danielmiessler Hey you going to send in the PHI and TC ?