Amir vs. Abyss: The Battle We Need

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I prefer straight ugly boxes. That one makes me dizzy.

Reminds me of Evansville North High School. Modern architecture. The windows are placed at weird angle. Cannot imagine crawling out those windows in a fire or earthquake. Indiana Department of Highways should plant Sequoias to hide and for driver distraction safety.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Raw birch?

Piano black?

Walnut?

Rosewood?

White?

I prefer Piano Black. But 1 mil plastic will do in a pinch.

 

[Helicopter]

Reminds me of Evansville North High School. Modern architecture. The windows are placed at weird angle. Cannot imagine crawling out those windows in a fire or earthquake. Indiana Department of Highways should plant Sequoias to hide and for driver distraction safety.

I don't think earthquakes are a big concern in Evansville, and normally one takes cover rather than evacuating during an earthquake, but I follow.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I was considering a system somewhat like the asker mentioned (about 1/2 as much however) but backed way off after reading this site for probably 60-80 hours - lots of threads and lots of forums. So now I am down in the $8-12K range for for all new electronics (before speakers). The people on here are very serious, very honest and most of all very sensible - and so willing to be helpful!
One question to ahofer -- are dipole speakers ala Spatial Audio consider among the "good" ones?
Thanks

Dipole will impress for a while. Spend money on Revel and buy Anthem AVR. Then you can say you are a non-conforming Canadian.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I don't think earthquakes are a big concern in Evansville, and normally one takes cover rather than evacuating during an earthquake, but I follow.

Endured 3 earthquakes in Southern Indiana. Bought earthquake insurance after 3rd one. All minor quakes. We are in the New Madrid fault line.

 

[Helicopter]

I was considering a system somewhat like the asker mentioned (about 1/2 as much however) but backed way off after reading this site for probably 60-80 hours - lots of threads and lots of forums. So now I am down in the $8-12K range for for all new electronics (before speakers). The people on here are very serious, very honest and most of all very sensible - and so willing to be helpful!
One question to ahofer -- are dipole speakers ala Spatial Audio consider among the "good" ones?
Thanks

8-12k electronics before speakers, I would say you want a pair of AHB2 amps. The rest depends on sources and if the remainder is 2k or 6k.

 

[Helicopter]

Endured 3 earthquakes in Southern Indiana. Bought earthquake insurance after 3rd one. All minor quakes. We are in the New Madrid fault line.

Oh yeah, I guess that's a thing. I grew up in Anchorage, Alaska. Had some real ones there.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

8-12k electronics before speakers, I would say you want a pair of AHB2 amps. The rest depends on sources and if the remainder is 2k or 6k.

If sources suck might as well use Apple earbuds.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Oh yeah, I guess that's a thing. I grew up in Anchorage, Alaska. Had some real ones there.

You are correct. I am over anxious nerd compared to your experience

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Purchased dream home in 2006. New Madrid shook one month later. Earthquake insurance was only extra Franklin a year. Found out we have copious sand pits due to 9 earthquake 4000 thousand years ago. Told my wife coming again and my bad luck next week.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Purchased dream home in 2006. New Madrid shook one month later. Earthquake insurance was only extra Franklin a year. Found out we have copious sand pits due to 9 earthquake 4000 thousand years ago. Told my wife coming again and my bad luck next week.

Oops. That is four thousand thousand.

 

[Easternlethal]

The discussion here on philosophy of science is idiotic and I modestly ask we stick to more tangible subjects.

I have a tangible suggestion. Why not just get 2 systems? They are really not that expensive these days.

1 which measures well and is state of the art - maybe based on topping / genelac and another which is at the other end of the spectrum. Maybe valve-based. Maybe vintage. If you have no space then concentrate on a different headphone setup.

I personally have one highly accurate system which is needed for producing music and watching movies - which needs dsp and accurate great off-axis response, and another system in a different room based on a vintage jbl for when I want to mess with tonality.

The two are not mutually exclusive and great fun to compare.

So if your dcs sounds the same as the topping then you'll know the difference. This is what we were doing before amit came along.

 

[das]

Well...I am considering InnousZENith MK III streamer + CD ripper (I still have CDs) + 2TB SSD, ($4900)==>Okto Res dac8 stereo ($1500), ==> Benchmark LA-4 ($2600) ==>Benchmark AHB-2 amp ($3000). All but ZENith reviewed on ASR and right at $12K before speakers. This appears to be able to provide the quality sound stage I am looking for - so long as the speakers are right.

 

[617]

I was considering a system somewhat like the asker mentioned (about 1/2 as much however) but backed way off after reading this site for probably 60-80 hours - lots of threads and lots of forums. So now I am down in the $8-12K range for for all new electronics (before speakers). The people on here are very serious, very honest and most of all very sensible - and so willing to be helpful!
One question to ahofer -- are dipole speakers ala Spatial Audio consider among the "good" ones?
Thanks

The spatial audio products are odd and exhibit some audiophilish type thinking, but I can see them sounding very atmospheric and very dynamic. I don't think the dome tweeter models are worth consideration. I'd definitely want to audition before purchase. If you are interested in Dipoles and want to do DIY, I'd seriously look at the Linkwitz LX521 kit:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...witz-lx521-4-new-build-and-impressions.21073/
These will illuminate your room like no other and would be my choice for a dipole over other offerings. Linkwitz was an audio icon and designed some of the most innovative speakers of our time, and the LX521 was his final work.

As to whether they are considered 'good' we can't say without detailed measurements, but there are some major flaws in their basic driver topology, mostly due to the immense directivity discontinuity between a 12" woofer and a 1" dome tweeter. Nothing can fix that.

With regards to electronics, I would be comfortable with the performance offered by the benchmark and okto gear, and as long as your streamer is just spitting out spdif or toslink or whatever you should be good. You could save a good bit of money if you wanted to of course, but the benchmark and okto stuff does look very nice.

I would really encourage someone investing this kind of money to audition speakers; and not just the typical boutiquey audiophile stuff. Listen to the Dutch + Dutch, the Genelecs, the ME Geithains, the Linkwitzes if you can. Listen to some horn setups, or to some Danley SH50S, or some Westlake monitors or whatever. Listen to some JBL M2s if dynamics are a priority for you. Listen to some Revels, maybe some electrostatics. Work backwards from there. Many of these speakers don't even require outboard amplifiers.

 

[Easternlethal]

Well...I am considering InnousZENith MK III streamer + CD ripper (I still have CDs) + 2TB SSD, ($4900)==>Okto Res dac8 stereo ($1500), ==> Benchmark LA-4 ($2600) ==>Benchmark AHB-2 amp ($3000). All but ZENith reviewed on ASR and right at $12K before speakers. This appears to be able to provide the quality sound stage I am looking for - so long as the speakers are right.

i have looked at the benchmark also but if you add in the cost of the speaker then it's more economical to just get an active monitor.

 

[Coach_Kaarlo]

The discussion here on philosophy of science is idiotic and I modestly ask we stick to more tangible subjects.

I am making this into a T-shirt - thank you my friend - made my day!

 

[JohnBooty]

I was considering a system somewhat like the asker mentioned (about 1/2 as much however) but backed way off after reading this site for probably 60-80 hours - lots of threads and lots of forums. So now I am down in the $8-12K range for for all new electronics (before speakers). The people on here are very serious, very honest and most of all very sensible - and so willing to be helpful!
One question to ahofer -- are dipole speakers ala Spatial Audio consider among the "good" ones?
Thanks

That's an interesting question for a bunch of objectivists like us. From what I've heard dipoles are going to be amazing at some things and fall down at others.

What I (a hobbyist 1/100th as knowledgable as many on this forum, maybe less) can tell you is that at Capital Audiofest 2019 I heard a set of Spatial Audio M3s. I and more than a few people I talked to named them their favorite speakers of the show. The "you are there" illusion they created was amazing to me. I also heard some dipoles that did not impress as much but that could also be down to differences in room, listening material, how drunk I was at the time, etc.

I suspect dipoles (and omnis, etc.) with their heavier reliance on reflected sounds will always measure "worse" (at least with current methods) than traditional box speakers designed to more directly beam sound at the listening/measurement position.

Is that an argument against objectivism? Well IMHO no. I think our current measurement model is good at a lot of things, particularly traditional box speakers. When "science" (ASR isn't "science" in the rigorous sense, but you know what I mean) fails to explain something new that doesn't mean we abandon science, just that those doing science haven't wrapped their heads around the new thing yet.

At a minimum, those Spatial Audios would make a really fun set of second speakers. Their light weight means they'd be easy to drag out and stow away....

 

[Ilkless]

I have a tangible suggestion. Why not just get 2 systems? They are really not that expensive these days.

1 which measures well and is state of the art - maybe based on topping / genelac and another which is at the other end of the spectrum. Maybe valve-based. Maybe vintage. If you have no space then concentrate on a different headphone setup.

I personally have one highly accurate system which is needed for producing music and watching movies - which needs dsp and accurate great off-axis response, and another system in a different room based on a vintage jbl for when I want to mess with tonality.

The two are not mutually exclusive and great fun to compare.

So if your dcs sounds the same as the topping then you'll know the difference. This is what we were doing before amit came along.

I whole-heartedly agree. Just because one believes in evidence-based audio doesn't mean all the fuzzy stuff like aesthetics, backstory and ergonomics has to be sacrificed. It just means you don't let these things be confused with audio reproduction. I would love something like one of the modern beamforming actives, but I also want a small bedroom setup with an point-to-point-wired EL34 integrated by the 85-year-old widow that runs the radio shop my family has been visiting since my grandfather for the glow and the memories.

 

[Easternlethal]

re spatial audio, with all the other technologies we have today such as waveguiding, digital amplification, dsp etc. isn't using a single dipole driver to counteract room modes a bit like buying a black and white cathode ray tv?

 

[das]

The room is 13.8 by 18.5 by 10 - decent medium size and I can only get away with one system (for domestic bliss reasons). I do plan to audition the SA's before purchasing - then the rest of the budget for the electronics gets decided. I have heard quite often they do provide unbelievable accurate sound stage and dimensionality with good time coherence with excellent bass (no subs required) - so I will see what I think after auditioning and report back some time later. They are very efficient so I don't need much power - I just thought the AHB was one of the cleanest power amps even at low level, so why not? But I also heard these speakers are super with First Watt or with ZOTL ultralinear. How's that for mixing objective measurements and subjective listening? Thanks for your suggestions - I'll do some more research. P.S. I did fly that airplane way back when...