Amir vs. Abyss: The Battle We Need

[welsh]

It is well illustrated that the debate format is an appalling route to understanding complex problems, respective positions and especially in building consensus-its does provide an excellent platform for cranks and charlatans to trumpet their insane beliefs again and again though. Mutually appreciative discussions are more fruitful, expose areas of interest/substance and weaknesses/virtues of positions. This mode is unpopular because people mostly want to have a pre existing view or intuition reinforced. There’s a reason why it’s usual for 100% of the audience to walk away heralding a win for their ‘side’, their views utterly unchanged. Now in would interested in seeing the sort of thing that Sam Harris does, basically a discussion with some one of a different view, or just expertise in an area. He usually has no success in meeting in the middle with zealots mind you.

I agree. See, for instance, the Gish Gallop’.

 

[welsh]

May I comment on other things to do with the original suggested system?

The DCS dac systems to me, look like a car with an engine at each wheel, rather than one efficient engine driving two or four wheels via a very carefully opimised transmission. Each engine will need careful throttle and so on adjustment independently as well as equally to maintain the same loading on the wheels (excuse my bad wording here). The thing is, it's been shown that one well designed engine is all you need to drive a four or more wheeled vehicle along, the fun being in optimising the engine to the chassis as a whole for the task at hand. The RME dac does it all really for domestic use, but I suspect it doesn't look the part for some.

I worry about the long term reliability and service of the apparently hot running D'Agostino amps. Early Krells, especially from the KSA80 era non-fan-cooled models onwards, seem to all need substantial servicing now as the hot running chassis' have cooked all the electrolytic caps as well as the circuit boards possibly. Even the plateau-bias KSA50S I owned for a while, suffered what I regard as severe discolouration on the circuit boards where the design called for four transistors in a bank (current amplifiers?) to be biased hard I suspect, hot running (even if the output stage could idle at low temperature). There were four sets of these in this differential circuit design. Anyway, what I'm saying is that the think could cook if run in a spirited fashion, something like twenty elexctrolytics per side which I felt beyond me to strip out if necessary, so I sold it to a chap who enjoyed it for a year until a 'bake-off' in a local village hall where I suspect it was wrung out. It was never the same again, one channel started to distort and an engineer pal who tried to repair it admitted defeat! The Hypex/Purifi based amp designs also look to have a lot of electrolytic caps on the board, but they seeming run cool most of the time, so a long life should be taken as read hopefully. Shame he's not here now, but the March Audio amps do look nicely finished and presented as an example, if that kind of thing matters.

Now, maybe the OP's disposable income can take the ott DSC and hot running steam punk D'Agostino amp in their stride and for that kind of person, brilliant! A shame that many such purchasers wouldn't even look at simpler and at least as good alternatives - I can't speak for the speakers as final choices will be more personal. I'd ask if he can try to get a listen to the domestic/pro-crossover speakers like the D&D and Kii to name but two (I suspect the larger Genelecs and so on are extremely naughty in the current world, as large active ATC's and JBL's used to be in my day ).

For the OP’s budget, why not an Apple HomePod and several years’ worth of high quality psychoactive drugs?

 

[egellings]

I think a pancake-shaped or similar motor controlled by smart sensor-informed electronics at each wheel of a car would be better than a central motor with mechanical transmission. You get to dump the lossy bulky gearbox.

 

[NoSnakeOil2]

Hey all, new user and new almost-audiophile here.

I'm a skeptically-distanced fan of Abyss. I love their videos. I like the family. They seem smart, knowledgable, and—most importantly—honest. I'm also somewhat biased since I have their AB 1266 TC headphones, and one of their super-expensive cables for it (paired with a Bartók, if anyone cares).

Anyway, like a few weeks ago I was thinking about trying to rig up some way of measuring high-res and low-res files on a graph, like to see objectively where there were frequency differences. I read a lot, and I MASSIVELY distrust my own ears and brain. Placebo effect is strong enough to be measured as a REAL effect. It's crazy.

So then I find Amir. Like literally last night. And I watch like hours of his stuff. Read tons on this forum, etc. And after a year of study in this field, I see some clear sides.

Abyss thinks every single thing matters to sound quality, and they talk for hours about this. Amir thinks (mostly) that only the measurements matter.

So who wants to see Amir sit down with those three in a discussion, with some equipment, and just talk it through. WITH DATA. And even if the data show that there's no difference, but we can get a large number of people (audiophiles or not) saying they can tell a difference in this vs. that, then maybe we start looking for what is producing that impression?

You know, like science!

For example, wouldn't it be crazy if we could isolate 1) the actual objective differences in stuff, and 2) non-machine-measurable differences in perception that come from X, Y, or Z variables?

In other words, if I get a placebo bump from X, which costs $4 dollars—and it sounds as good as spending $16,400 on speakers. Amazing, I'm buying that placebo.

I think a lot of people underestimate the effect of human psychology in this whole audio game. People might actually have better experiences due to a massive psychological filter of having put 300 hours of effort into their system. Like an ACTUAL better experience, which we'd be able to measure if we lived in the future and had tons of FMRI data.

Anyway, just throwing the idea out there. If we have two smart entities, who we assume are acting in good faith, let's get them connected!

I know this sport can have a lot of religious hate, but I'm confident that we can push past that in search of truth. Call me an optimist.

SO. HOW CAN WE MAKE THIS HAPPEN?

ASR


I'm starting to think that, if it's a placebo effect that makes someone happy with their gear, more power to them. ))))) ASR is more for people who like objectivity, statistics, and find it hard to fool themselves.))) lol

 

[ahofer]

ASR


I'm starting to think that, if it's a placebo effect that makes someone happy with their gear, more power to them. ))))) ASR is more for people who like objectivity, statistics, and find it hard to fool themselves.))) lol

So here's the five-figure question: Are equipment placebo effects stable and long-lasting? My instinct is they are not, and that's why we should put more weight on objective fidelity. But I'm not aware of evidence to prove or disprove that thesis, it just seems to make sense.

 

[egellings]

I suspect that the placebo effect for audio equipment fades pretty quickly. That would be especially true if the equipment did not work that well in your system for some reason or other.

 

[amirm]

Many times the 'improvement' comes from the listener evaluating gear, and paying more attention. As a result they hear new detail, lower noise floor, etc. Later when they just listen for enjoyment, this effect disappears and so does the improvement. This then results in chasing the next tweak, next gear, etc.

 

[egellings]

I agree with amirm. I built a no holds barred, 'nothing's too good for my little Fi-Fi' tube preamp and retired it while I tried a new home brew using semiconductors. Well, a year later, I decided to resurrect "Earl Gellings: His Reference" (yup, that's how I named it. You pronounce the word 'colon' at the punctuation mark!), and it's like I bought (or built) a brand spanking new one. I 'heard' detail I had not noticed before, and I think it was just caused by the placebo effect sparked by a 'new' (second time around) piece of equipment. Novelty, real or second time around, affects S.Q. perception, it seems.

 

[MaxBuck]

ASR

I'm starting to think that, if it's a placebo effect that makes someone happy with their gear, more power to them. ))))) ASR is more for people who like objectivity, statistics, and find it hard to fool themselves.))) lol

There's IMO a danger with the common mindset here, though: the notion that all the variables that affect the creation of sound from transducers into the listening space have been sufficiently defined, that their measurements in an amplification or DAC/ADC component can be relied upon to be accurate independent of interactions with the other components, and that those measurements are all that matter.

In short, I'm not convinced that the sort of measurements we see here are The Last Word in defining audio reproduction excellence and how best to achieve it. But I am convinced that there's nothing better on which to base purchase decisions.

Basing decisions on the kind of flowery prose and anecdotal musings of product manufacturers, retailers and their associated toadies certainly isn't rational. But the flowery prose can nonetheless be entertaining.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

So here's the five-figure question: Are equipment placebo effects stable and long-lasting? My instinct is they are not, and that's why we should put more weight on objective fidelity. But I'm not aware of evidence to prove or disprove that thesis, it just seems to make sense.

What is it with you idiots you can't understand the difference between objective and measured?

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

I did some more listening tests with my AB-1266 Phi TC's vs. my Focal Utopia's the other day, spending quite some time with them. Yup, the AB-1266's still sound better.

I think the next test I will do will be against the Hifiman HE1000se, which has a response closer to Harman than the AB-1266, and is a planar like it. I think that comparison will be tougher.

 

[egellings]

Apparently not. "My Little Fi-Fi" sounded like a new preamp after a year's hiatus. The placebo effect seems to fade, but can be regenerated, even with the same piece of equipment.