• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

amir makes splash on reddit

Maki

Active Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2018
Messages
252
Likes
478
People are just whining because Amir's measurements don't depict their headphones in the best possible light with some subjectivists jumping on the bandwagon because they hate that ASR challenged their dogmas. There's no pushback for reviewers who post only measurements with perfect seal, even though that may not be achievable on many peoples' heads. There's no standard for a "correct" seal except it seems the one that makes the manufacturer look the best.
 

Nango

Major Contributor
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
1,463
Likes
985
Location
D:\EU\GER\Rheinhessen
I got a shout out!
Yep...pretty famous now.

View attachment 123397

I will repeat here for posterity that there is zero evidence that @Resolve had anything to do with the weird shenanigans. That doesn't mean there weren't some weird shenanigans that were dealt with. I also sent a private note to @Resolve , who handled the situation with class.
Now...

View attachment 123398
Learn the lesson and stop banning ppl prematurely from participating on this site!
 

JSmith

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
5,153
Likes
13,219
Location
Algol Perseus
People are just whining because Amir's measurements don't depict their headphones in the best possible light with some subjectivists jumping on the bandwagon because they hate that ASR challenged their dogmas.
Agree... also I don't see how subjectivism can be applied to electronic devices, it's a complete load of BS to try and legitimise idiocy.



JSmith
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,370
Likes
234,426
Location
Seattle Area
It's okay to have some debate, and buried in amongst a bunch of gripes on matters of style, a couple of valid questions were raised, such as whether channel matching on the Dan Clark Aeon RTs was acceptable, and why the variance from Oratory1990's measurements, apparently done with GRAS 43AG.
Channel matching can be an artifact of measurement rig. Remember, I am using stereo measurements on a fixture. Everybody else seems to do mono/one-channel testing/averaging both. A one or two millimeter movement can throw the levels off between the channels. There is no way to test for channel matching in this kind of testing.

In general, you can immediately dismiss any comment from anyone that seeks precision in headphone measurements. There is no such animal.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,780
Location
Oxfordshire
It is just the standard reaction from people who have had an opinion for years having it questioned by fact.
I read that people will be more angry at the person who points out the shortcomings of an opinion than at the person(s) who misled them in the first place.
We have seen this in individual reviews here where agrieved owners have taken issue, we have seen it in cable threads, we see it in populist politics.
It is part of the human condition.
A senior politician here once announced "people are fed up of experts" what he meant really was that the facts did not support his opinion and rather than correct his opinion to one in line with facts he had chosen to criticise the source of the facts.
It happens all the time and gets people really wound up.
 

Vict0r

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
647
Likes
1,581
Location
The Netherlands
The initial post on Reddit isn't even that bad. I mean, it's pretty reasonable if you look at the actual words written. Most of it can be chalked up to a difference in methodology and opinion.

In the end, you thankfully use Amir's hard work to weed out the weak, and then proceed to actually listen to/audition the stuff that remains, and end up with the one that suits you best. The one you end up with doesn't have to be the one that measures the best, though.

I used to talk to Nwavguy quite a bit back in the day. I think I may be the only person "in the scene" that actually knows his name, for example. All he ever wanted to show us was that we were being lied to more often than not, and measurements help prove this. They're a tool that will help you see through all the marketing BS, but they're not the only tool you should rely on. It's okay to be a little subjective now and then. :p

Many hobbies have this exact same "drama" going on all the time. Watches (mechanical vs quartz, Asian vs Swiss), gaming (consoles vs pc). cars (don't even start)... It's all part of the forum life. :p
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
The initial post on Reddit isn't even that bad. I mean, it's pretty reasonable if you look at the actual words written. Most of it can be chalked up to a difference in methodology and opinion.

In the end, you thankfully use Amir's hard work to weed out the weak, and then proceed to actually listen to/audition the stuff that remains, and end up with the one that suits you best. The one you end up with doesn't have to be the one that measures the best, though.

I used to talk to Nwavguy quite a bit back in the day. I think I may be the only person "in the scene" that actually knows his name, for example. All he ever wanted to show us was that we were being lied to more often than not, and measurements help prove this. They're a tool that will help you see through all the marketing BS, but they're not the only tool you should rely on. It's okay to be a little subjective now and then. :p

Many hobbies have this exact same "drama" going on all the time. Watches (mechanical vs quartz, Asian vs Swiss), gaming (consoles vs pc). cars (don't even start)... It's all part of the forum life. :p
So this is one of Amir's ghost accounts to throw everyone off the scent of NWAV guy. I'm sure you know his name alright. Vict0r with a zero. ;)
 

Vict0r

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
647
Likes
1,581
Location
The Netherlands
So this is one of Amir's ghost accounts to throw everyone off the scent of NWAV guy. I'm sure you know his name alright. Vict0r with a zero. ;)

Hey, we all love a good conspiracy every now and then. The truth is often way more boring than you're hoping for, though. ;)
 

rdenney

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 30, 2020
Messages
2,235
Likes
3,857
It is just the standard reaction from people who have had an opinion for years having it questioned by fact.
I read that people will be more angry at the person who points out the shortcomings of an opinion than at the person(s) who misled them in the first place.
We have seen this in individual reviews here where agrieved owners have taken issue, we have seen it in cable threads, we see it in populist politics.
It is part of the human condition.
A senior politician here once announced "people are fed up of experts" what he meant really was that the facts did not support his opinion and rather than correct his opinion to one in line with facts he had chosen to criticise the source of the facts.
It happens all the time and gets people really wound up.

Yes, but people are often fed up by experts who also draw conclusions not supported by data, or not supported as vigorously as their statements or rhetoric suggest.

I review research papers, and routinely find conclusions that are overstated. And I hear expert commentary constantly that disagrees sharply with other expert commentary, especially when the data are subtle or have political consequences. I have spent time in my career in courtrooms giving expert testimony, often directly refuting or directly refuted by experts for the other side. That’s what makes people not trust experts.

The technical ability to make and interpret measurements and the language skills to write them expressively, clearly and accurately are rare in one person. Those who write blogs and magazine articles often start at the language end of that spectrum and work back to the technical end only part of the way. The same is true for those who start at the technical end. Both must recognize when they haven’t made the whole trip, but that’s not easy either. And there are amateurs online who start in the middle and don’t make the trip all the way to either end.

Rick “that’s just like your opinion, maaaan” Denney
 

julian_hughes

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
657
Likes
901
I wouldn't complain about the differences in measurement methods and results as every tester differs to a degree and in the long term it's consistency that matters most imo. But the aspect of criticism that has weight is on Amir's listening levels being phenomenally, insanely loud. At the levels described it just isn't possible to make a well informed subjective opinion/judgement that will in any way whatsoever be practical and useful to anyone else. The equipment is sometimes being used well outside its design parameters and in ways that no manufacturer would ever intend, recommend or expect. That matters! It also matters that a person who listens at extreme levels as a matter of course is *extremely* unlikely to have undamaged hearing and will not be able to detect faults which are clearly audible to others but may not be picked up on measurements. I'm thinking of intermittent interference noise from PC/smartphone with USB DACs (especially with dongles) and with portable amplifiers (4G/LTE noise is very common yet I've never seen it measured and rarely remarked upon as part of a test). And with low impedance IEMs it's hardly uncommon to experience some hissing with some sources yet this will pass unnoticed by anyone who can no longer hear unless they crank everything up to extreme levels. DAPs sometimes make noises between tracks but this is never measured and rarely remarked upon.

Having owned and used a few things that have been tested here and/or at sbaf and at innerfidelity (in the good old days!) I've learnt that neither ASR nor SBAF is as reliable in offering subjective descriptions of listening experience as Tyll Hertsens was. Amir definitely misses stuff and listens in an incredibly atypical way, and SBAF have an irrational and religious like hatred for perfectly good products like Topping DACs and JDS Labs amps while loving to hype their friends' products. I think the measurement aspect is fine in each case but I know from experience that the opinions expressed, for different reasons in each case, need to be carefully weighted.
 

Vict0r

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
647
Likes
1,581
Location
The Netherlands
I've learnt that neither ASR nor SBAF is as reliable in offering subjective descriptions of listening experience as Tyll Hertsens was.

I'm sure Tyll's glad to be out of this whole internet scuffle and is listening to a pair of his favourite V-Moda's in his camper right now. :)
 

JeffS7444

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 21, 2019
Messages
2,347
Likes
3,508
Hey, we all love a good conspiracy every now and then. The truth is often way more boring than you're hoping for, though. ;)
So NWAVGUY wasn't silenced by an audio mafia? (Not that I would wish for such a thing!)
 

Vict0r

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 6, 2020
Messages
647
Likes
1,581
Location
The Netherlands
So NWAVGUY wasn't silenced by an audio mafia? (Not that I would wish for such a thing!)

Schiit hitmen got to him!

No, I wouldn't know. He stopped emailing me in May 2012. No idea what happened to him. I hope he's well.
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,875
Likes
6,673
Location
UK
Schiit hitmen got to him!

No, I wouldn't know. He stopped emailing me in May 2012. No idea what happened to him. I hope he's well.
It's horrible when people you "know" well on the internet just disappear without saying they're leaving, makes you wonder if something awful happened.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,370
Likes
234,426
Location
Seattle Area
But the aspect of criticism that has weight is on Amir's listening levels being phenomenally, insanely loud.
I am fascinated that some of you know how loud I listen. How did you get that information? How do you know how loud is loud?

Let's say that is true. Would you have the same issue with a car reviewer that pushes the car to the max to measure zero to 60? Is he incapable of then telling you how comfortable the car is to drive, etc.?
 

Wes

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 5, 2019
Messages
3,843
Likes
3,788
Agree... also I don't see how subjectivism can be applied to electronic devices, it's a complete load of BS to try and legitimise idiocy.



JSmith

any time you listen to an electronic device you are apply subjectivism
 

JSmith

Master Contributor
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
5,153
Likes
13,219
Location
Algol Perseus
any time you listen to an electronic device you are apply subjectivism
One doesn't listen to an electronic device (unless listening for physical sounds emanating from the device, like capacitor whine or a hard disk for example), one listens to the analogue output in the case of an audio device.



JSmith
 

julian_hughes

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 23, 2020
Messages
657
Likes
901
I am fascinated that some of you know how loud I listen. How did you get that information? How do you know how loud is loud?

Let's say that is true. Would you have the same issue with a car reviewer that pushes the car to the max to measure zero to 60? Is he incapable of then telling you how comfortable the car is to drive, etc.?

You frequently describe listening at extreme levels and how much you enjoy it. That would be how people know.
 

Denon545

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2021
Messages
16
Likes
18
What I see/read is the majority of possibly paid reviewers having their laundry hung out in public by Amir’s measurements and this casts doubt on their paid/endorsed/incentivized reviews. Expected nothing less. They must try to discredit ASR to make themselves look better. Notice all the personal attacks and precious little actual measurements put up as opposing scientific evidence. Actually I saw zero science in their attempt to refute what ASR/Amir does!

This is exactly the way I see it. Case in point- Elac Uni-Fi 2.0. I go on youtube and there are all these glowing reviews from the usual suspects. I get tempted and order a pair from Crutchfield only to find the treble is shelved. How did these get such glowing reviews, maybe I am just not the audiophile I thought I was! Amir reviews them and finds an issue around 585hz, plus the shelved treble too. Oh it can't be cried the usual suspects... Amir was over driving the speakers etc. The excuses rolled out. However, I was able to replicate the exact issue with my pair with only a 200 watt amp. Others have also found the same issue. This is just one example... there are dozens such as the headphone examples above.

Morale of the story, the site is bad business for the paid/endorsed/incentivized reviewers!
 

_thelaughingman

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 1, 2020
Messages
1,324
Likes
1,943
ooh how we objectivists love bursting the subjectivist elite's bubbles. Oh all those tears they cry for calling out their fallacies. :facepalm:
 
Top Bottom