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Amazon Music HD, Firestick, Denon 4500 - no 24 bit input

RDoc

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I'm using a 3rd Gen Firestick into a Denon AVR-X4500H streaming Amazon HD with Ultra HD turned on. This really does sound good, significantly better than Spotify HD, however it will only do 192 kHz 16 bit, not 24 bit. Does anyone have any idea why?

As an aside, I really didn't expect the Ultra HD to make much improvement, but both my wife and I immediately noticed the difference between the Amazon 192/16 and the Spotify HD versions of the same album. We both feel the sound is "crisper" and can tell the instruments apart more clearly. Both streaming services are great, but the Amazon Ultra HD really sounds more like we are listening to live music. Having said that, individual albums are different. For some there doesn't seem to be much difference, for others it's quite pronounced.
 

M00ndancer

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First something important:

Our brains are trying to fool us and succeeds every time.
If there are volume level differences, the loudest music always sounds better to our brains.

...Amazon HD with Ultra HD turned on. This really does sound good, significantly better than Spotify HD, however it will only do 192 kHz 16 bit, not 24 bit. Does anyone have any idea why?

As an aside, I really didn't expect the Ultra HD to make much improvement, but both my wife and I immediately noticed the difference between the Amazon 192/16 and the Spotify HD versions of the same album. We both feel the sound is "crisper" and can tell the instruments apart more clearly. Both streaming services are great, but the Amazon Ultra HD really sounds more like we are listening to live music. Having said that, individual albums are different. For some there doesn't seem to be much difference, for others it's quite pronounced.

You will not be able to hear a difference between Amazon HD with Ultra HD and Spotify HD, unless:
There are volume differences or different master recordings or some thing is broken.

Studies has shown that 1411 kbps / 44.1 kHz / 16 bit (CD quality) lossless audio is beyond human hearing.

Frequencies above 44.1/48 kHz and more than 16 bits are a waste of bandwidth unless you are in a recording studio.
In a studio there might be benefits to using up to 96 kHz /24 bit for errors between digital effects.
I use 44.1/48 kHz 24bit in my master recordings and then dither and mix them to 44.1/48 kHz 16 bit for consumption.

Comparing Spotify and Amazon:

Spotify:
Spotify Premium, desktop player: Ogg Vorbis? VBR <= 320 kbps @ 44.1 kHz 16 bit
Spotify Premium, web player: AAC 320 kbps @ 44.1 kHz 16 bit
https://support.spotify.com/us/article/high-quality-streaming/

Amazon: (Source: Amazon.com)
Amazon Music HD offers lossless audio in two quality ranges: HD and Ultra HD.
HD tracks are 16-bit audio, with a minimum sample rate of 44.1 kHz (16/44.1 is also referred to as CD-quality), and an average bitrate of 850 kbps. Ultra HD tracks have a bit depth of 24 bits, with sample rates ranging from 44.1 kHz up to 192 kHz, and an average bitrate of 3730 kbps.

In comparison, most standard streaming services currently offer Standard Definition (SD) with a bitrate up to 320 kbps. These audio files use lossy compression, where details of the original audio are removed in order to reduce the file size. By contrast, Amazon Music HD preserves the original recording information to deliver the highest quality sound available, more than 2x the bitrate in HD and more than 10x the bitrate at the highest Ultra HD bitrate. Amazon Music HD will always play the highest quality content available, based on network, device capability and your selected settings.

Codecs and bitrates:
Amazon SD: Opus lossy <= 850 kbps lossless compression 16bit ?
Amazon HD: FLAC lossless = average bitrate of 850 kbps @ 44.1 kHz / 16bit
Amazon Ultra HD: FLAC lossless = average bitrate 3730 kbps @ 44.1 kHz up to 192 kHz / 24 bits

Sources:
https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=14070322011
https://www.soundguys.com/amazon-music-hd-review-29137/

Why is is then different?

Read this for more insights:

Bias in Auditory Perception

Psychoacoustics Fundamentals

Tidal vs. Deezer vs. Qobuz vs. Spotify vs. Apple Music

Formats: 320k aac vs Lossless (Roon related)

Have a great new year!
 
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RDoc

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Yes, I was very doubtful there would be an audible difference, but decided to give it a try since it was cheap to do. However, my wife, without knowing what the music source was, immediately commented on the better sound. This was on the Getz/Gilberto album which we're very familiar with. The volume level was our normal listening level for both. The levels certainly could have been slightly different, but if so, not much.

Perhaps there's a difference between Spotify HD and Amazon Ultra HD versions, but they show it as the same album.
 

Beershaun

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Hi,
You mentioned your AVR is receiving 16 bit 192khz tracks and not 24bit. how are you determining this? I have never seen a 16bit/192khz file. It seems odd that you are getting this output from the firestick. Do you have a way to validate that it's 16bit audio and not 24bit audio? I do not use Amazon music so I am not sure what settings options you have. I recently read elsewhere that the sound output settings on the Firestick (set output to stereo) and the Amazon Music app can be adjusted (set quality to ultraHD) to make sure you are getting the correct output.
 

samshaver

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I do not use a FireTV Stick to stream music to, so I can’t say for sure, but here is what I have seen in my experience using Amazon Music HD.

Whenever I connect to a dedicated DAC the DAC ALWAYS shows 192kHz regardless of what the actual track is playing at (as long as your device supports it. If not, it will display the maximum sample rate supported by the device)...
258162D9-2614-4C70-BD9A-C4BD4676D953.jpeg

At least on iOS, you can see what quality the track is available in and is currently playing at, along with your device’s capability, by tapping on the quality icon (i.e. SD, HD, Ultra HD) on the now playing screen. Here are a couple examples.
E435523F-ECCD-4C89-B0A3-4947DB62380A.png

ACAAE7B4-A76E-412C-B195-7D85B359FA9C.png

Hope that may help. Otherwise, unless your X4500H specifically shows you what bit rate it is receiving, I don’t know how you would tell the difference between 16-bit or 24-bit playback, because, even with my Standard Opus example, the DAC was still displaying 192kHz.
 

samshaver

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So, the question that I have had is, if the DAC is showing 192kHz, does that mean that Amazon in just upsampling everything to 192kHz, and, if so, how does that effect sound quality?!? Because my understanding would be that, if that is the case, wouldn’t that be introducing interpolation error into your audio signal?!? Or, I guess the real question would be, is interpolation and/or quantization error audible?!?
 

Beershaun

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So, the question that I have had is, if the DAC is showing 192kHz, does that mean that Amazon in just upsampling everything to 192kHz, and, if so, how does that effect sound quality?!? Because my understanding would be that, if that is the case, wouldn’t that be introducing interpolation error into your audio signal?!? Or, I guess the real question would be, is interpolation and/or quantization error audible?!?

How are you streaming to the DAC in your picture? Are you using apple airplay?
 

samshaver

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In that picture, specifically, I am using the Apple Lighting to USB Camera Adapter MD821ZM/A or Camera Connection Kit (CCK)
 

samshaver

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If I use Bluetooth from my iOS device, I am limited to only an AAC connection, which, at least on my device (xDuoo QX-50 Pro) it is limited to 24-bit 44.1kHz.
6F136489-0C00-4F28-A085-D07316030156.jpeg

9D513A36-0722-4A0C-8D7D-398D0DA33C97.png

Where as, if I use my Topping D70s, again, it will only display 44.1kHz. So, you wouldn’t really know if it’s streaming at 16-bit or 24-bit without checking that actual output on the app for each song.
D2AEF6CB-1B93-4684-8AFB-2EB0194ADFD8.jpeg
 

samshaver

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Then, again, apparently, even then you still don’t know what it’s actually playing at without checking the app. I literally just caught it where my xDuoo QX-50 Pro was still displaying 44.1kHz/24-bit, but the actual output, per the app was 16-bit 44.1kHz.
4B88EA17-35A9-41B5-B1DD-8F8EEE39F2E7.png

This kind of nonsense is really my only gripe with Amazon Music HD. Otherwise, I think the selection is quite good, I think the quality is quite good, and you don’t have to worry about MQA, at least for now.
 

Beershaun

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In that picture, specifically, I am using the Apple Lighting to USB Camera Adapter MD821ZM/A or Camera Connection Kit (CCK)

OK. So the wired case where your iPhone is showing the track quality is 24/96 but your XDuoo is showing 192: I expect, but am not sure, that the iPhone via Amazon Music app is sending a 24/96 file out to the DAC. The DAC is then upsampling it to 24/192.
 

Beershaun

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Then, again, apparently, even then you still don’t know what it’s actually playing at without checking the app. I literally just caught it where my xDuoo QX-50 Pro was still displaying 44.1kHz/24-bit, but the actual output, per the app was 16-bit 44.1kHz.
View attachment 102933
This kind of nonsense is really my only gripe with Amazon Music HD. Otherwise, I think the selection is quite good, I think the quality is quite good, and you don’t have to worry about MQA, at least for now.

Yes. This is frustrating. It's a problem all the streaming music services have. The Mobile operating systems have a tendency to mess with the stream and it's hard to get bit-perfect out of them. For example I can't get anything but 16/48khz out of my Android phone or streaming media stick (FireTV) for Tidal unless I install a 3rd party application called USB Audio Player Pro, and use their application as the music player on my phone. This is because the operating system is getting in the way and messing with the stream. I am not sure what iOS does to your audio stream if it messes with it or not.
 

samshaver

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OK. So the wired case where your iPhone is showing the track quality is 24/96 but your XDuoo is showing 192: I expect, but am not sure, that the iPhone via Amazon Music app is sending a 24/96 file out to the DAC. The DAC is then upsampling it to 24/192.
I’ve seen people say similar things, about expecting the DAC to show 192kHz, other places, but I don’t understand why that would be, unless it thinks it is getting something that is actually at a 192kHz sample rate?!? Similar to the Andriod app you mentioned, I have used VOX - MP3 & FLAC Music Player app on my phone and when giving it 16/44.1, 16/48, 24/44.1, 24/96, and 24/192 files, for sure that I can remember off the top of my head, they would all display the proper, native sample rate on the DAC. So, that would lead me to believe that whatever is coming from the Amazon Music HD app is indeed at a 192kHz sample rate, as, also, if you switch to a different app, it will also switch to 44.1kHz until you switch back to the Amazon Music app. Which then leads me back to my interpolation and quantization error question, and if Amazon is truly not sending a native signal and upsampling and/or increasing the bit rate on everything, is that actually degrading the quality?!?
 

Beershaun

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OK. You mentioned you have a Topping E30 as well. You will have to do a little process of elimination to see which thing is doing what. You would have to try switching quality levels on the Amazon HD app, seeing what happens on the Xduoo and then do the same thing on the Topping. Then see if they are different or the same. If they are reporting something different then your Xduoo is upsampling. If they are reporting the same thing then it's the Amazon app doing something.

If it is upsampling I wouldn't worry about it. Upsampling won't degrade quality or remove information. If it is downsampling I would be concerned because it's removing information.
 

Bamyasi

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Amazon Music HD app always resamples everything it plays back at a fixed sampling rate, it does not provide automatic rate switching on any of the supported devices. This fixed sampling rate is determined via the OS and reported as "Device capability" in the app. For Android, it is a fixed/hidden OS setting, unless you are willing to root your Android device. In iOS, it is determined by the OS dynamically and set to highest supported sampling rate of the external DACs or audio interface connected. In Windows, user can select up to maximum supported device sampling rate manually but it still will be fixed (macOS works similar to Windows in that respect, I believe).
 

M00ndancer

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If it is upsampling I wouldn't worry about it. Upsampling won't degrade quality or remove information. If it is downsampling I would be concerned because it's removing information.
As long as the final result is 44.1/48 kHz 16bit, I really don't care.
 
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RDoc

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Hi,
You mentioned your AVR is receiving 16 bit 192khz tracks and not 24bit. how are you determining this? I have never seen a 16bit/192khz file. It seems odd that you are getting this output from the firestick. Do you have a way to validate that it's 16bit audio and not 24bit audio? I do not use Amazon music so I am not sure what settings options you have. I recently read elsewhere that the sound output settings on the Firestick (set output to stereo) and the Amazon Music app can be adjusted (set quality to ultraHD) to make sure you are getting the correct output.
The Amazon Music HD app reports it.
 

Beershaun

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Bamyasi

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Amazon Music HD app always resamples everything it plays back at a fixed sampling rate, it does not provide automatic rate switching on any of the supported devices. This fixed sampling rate is determined via the OS and reported as "Device capability" in the app. For Android, it is a fixed/hidden OS setting, unless you are willing to root your Android device. In iOS, it is determined by the OS dynamically and set to highest supported sampling rate of the external DACs or audio interface connected. In Windows, user can select up to maximum supported device sampling rate manually but it still will be fixed (macOS works similar to Windows in that respect, I believe).
I was finally able to find HDMI audio extractor model which did the job (link below) and my DAC got 24/192 signal from the Amazon Music HD app on my Firestick 4K. I should say I am impressed with the overall sound quality, which I think is great, regardless of the bit depth or sampling rate of the tracks. Both HD and Ultra HD tracks sound very dynamic and there is absolutely no noise. Of course, it is still not bit-perfect, everything is resampled at 192 kHz. My only gripe is that gapless playback is still not supported on FS 4K. Let's hope they will fix it sooner or later.

Kanex Pro HDMI Audio De-Embedder with 3D Support, 2-Channel, HDCP Compliant, Full HD 1080p (HAECOAX)
 
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RDoc

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I do not use a FireTV Stick to stream music to, so I can’t say for sure, but here is what I have seen in my experience using Amazon Music HD.

Whenever I connect to a dedicated DAC the DAC ALWAYS shows 192kHz regardless of what the actual track is playing at (as long as your device supports it. If not, it will display the maximum sample rate supported by the device)...
View attachment 102918
At least on iOS, you can see what quality the track is available in and is currently playing at, along with your device’s capability, by tapping on the quality icon (i.e. SD, HD, Ultra HD) on the now playing screen. Here are a couple examples.View attachment 102919
View attachment 102920
Hope that may help. Otherwise, unless your X4500H specifically shows you what bit rate it is receiving, I don’t know how you would tell the difference between 16-bit or 24-bit playback, because, even with my Standard Opus example, the DAC was still displaying 192kHz.
I don't understand what you're saying. Neither of your examples shows 192 kHz playback. The first shows 96/24, the second Standard which I believe is 48/16. How long did you wait on the second before taking the screen shot? Amazon HD often takes a minute or so before switching to a higher rate/depth.
 
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