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Am I crazy for abandoning Room EQ?

curiouspeter

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Moving the speakers to delay the early reflections, and minimise their amplitude usually helps.
I am somewhat intrigued by Lyngdorf's approach of placing the woofers at the corners and using high crossovers.

But “essential” is clearly a subjective call.
Depending on the room, it is more essential in some cases than others. If the speakers are to be placed in the living room, it is very difficult to have anything close to good acoustics. If your sofa is against the back wall, all is lost without at least some EQ.
 

Tangband

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So, in the last three years I have went from a simple Yamaha AVR using YAPPO for simple distance and level adjustment to a Monoprice HTP-1 using Dirac and really diving into making my own house curve that didn't change the FR of the speakers too much past 500Hz (used the Harman house curve basically with more bass added) to a Trinnov Altitude and using a similar house curve to now an Anthem AVM90 and only using ARC EQ up to 500Hz.

Through them all, I still never felt like my Funk sub was being EQ'ed properly as there was a lot of oomph missing that I knew the sub could produce (being a 21", 2.4kw beast).

Recently I got around to using the Funk subs built-in DSP software and making my own PEQ adjustments to get a flat response: before, there was a +12dB peak between 30-45Hz and a -8dB null between 65-85Hz. The large difference between the two would always have any of the Room EQ software "neutering" the sub and favoring a baseline EQ target that used the peak instead of cutting the peak to get closer to the dip.

What I found doing my own PEQ is I can safely cut the peak and bring up the null for a somewhat flat (+/-4dB) response curve from 15Hz to 100Hz. And using reference level testing material, the sub handles it (no limiting, no distortion, etc).

By and large, the sub/bass sounds the best it ever has in my room with just using PEQ on the sub and letting the speakers play unaltered (no Room EQ). It also helps I have Revel Be speakers for the LCR and a decently treated room, so the natural sound above 200-300Hz is perfect to my ears in my room.

With all that said: am I crazy for completely abandoning Room EQ and letting my speakers play as they are in the room with just simple PEQ adjustment to the sub?
I am even contemplating selling the AVM90 to pocket the funds and just get a simple (but well reviewed) pre-pro or AVR at this point.

Again, crazy?
Room corrections from listening position only works below about 250-300 Hz, no matter what the companies say. So no, youre not crazy at all.
To make this even more logical, - most of the ”roomcorrection” programes in AVR:s are badly executed, gives badly advices during measurements and sound bad. They are often salespoints and a piece of crap.

Much better results can be had by doing the loudspeaker setup in the room where they sound the best without any roomcorrection, and then do as you did - make the corrections where the fundamental roomresonances are, at the bass frequencies only. Sometimes the best roomcorrection results is done only below 80 Hz , correcting only the rooms fundamental resonances. ( the sound bouncing wall to opposite wall, and floor to roof.)

If you live in a rectangular room, you can measure the distances between walls and get the exact frequencies were troubles are.

As some people already have mentioned - the prefered Harman curve in the bass is very real = + 4 dB shelving from 100 Hz and below gives better sound results. But with that said - thrust your ears. If it sounds bad but measures good then something is very wrong.

Edit : many automatic room correction programes uses high Q corrections ( more than 7 ) in the bass register. Those sound often really bad . Try to go in manually If it can be done, and change any Q = more than 7 to values below 7.
’ie only use peq with Q lower than 7 .
The corrections made below 250-300 Hz often only need half of the measured value to sound good.
 
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srrxr71

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The reason is in here. Dirac cutting the level to the lowest speaker. You probably have to adjust things manually in the end.
 

Cote Dazur

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With all that said: am I crazy for completely abandoning Room EQ and letting my speakers play as they are in the room

No, you are doing the right thing. Speaker placement and where you sit is the key. Trying to compensate for unoptimized speaker and seat placement with automatic EQ is a poor strategy. Only worth trying if you are not able to arrange your listening room around optimized speaker and seat placement.
 

Tangband

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No, you are doing the right thing. Speaker placement and where you sit is the key. Trying to compensate for unoptimized speaker and seat placement with automatic EQ is a poor strategy. Only worth trying if you are not able to arrange your listening room around optimized speaker and seat placement.
This is very true - room correction is no magic bullet for perfect sound . It can be the cream on the cake in a very good room , or help a hopeless situation with bad placement of the speakers with a room with bad acoustics .
Its more important to install the speakers where they sound the best in the room , instead of going the wrong way and start with dsp corrections that works against basic acoustic rules.
 

JoachimStrobel

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Well, I am reading this as I switch full range Dirac off and on. Sure, “off” sounds punchier, more like a Big Mac compared to a Carpaccio.
Looking at the my many mistakes I made with Dirac I would say it is prone to user errors.
Head to the nearest Jazzclub with a non-amplified trio playing. Sit in the back. Take a smartphone out and do a Fft with AudioTools etc. Head home. Play a Jazztrio on your system and do an FFT sitting naturally closer to the source. Ok w/o Dirac?
 

kongwee

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Just stereo w/o Dirac is ok, in live recording. It is never the same every time you listen to live.
 

bodhi

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The idea of automatic room EQ is convincing to a person like myself who would just like to get it done and forget about it.

A few months ago I bit the bullet and bought xt32 amp (Denon 4700) for my 2.1 setup, the amp cost about the same as the rest of the setup. Alas, it didn't solve my problems automatically. I almost left it at that because the sound was not bad at all, but somehow it just kept bothering me. I then proceeded to upgrade the speakers, upgrade the sub, getting another sub, damping feet for the subs, getting some acoustics panels and trying numerous placements for the subs and speakers. I even bought the MultiEq-X windows app for maximum tweaking. All the time checking results with REW of course. In the end I'm finally happy with the result (although the price of the setup is 6x the original...)

The thing is that when all is said and done, the only EQ I have left is what xt32 does automatically from 400Hz down and even then I suspect the only really audible problem is huge peak below 35-40Hz. :rolleyes:
 

srrxr71

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The idea of automatic room EQ is convincing to a person like myself who would just like to get it done and forget about it.

A few months ago I bit the bullet and bought xt32 amp (Denon 4700) for my 2.1 setup, the amp cost about the same as the rest of the setup. Alas, it didn't solve my problems automatically. I almost left it at that because the sound was not bad at all, but somehow it just kept bothering me. I then proceeded to upgrade the speakers, upgrade the sub, getting another sub, damping feet for the subs, getting some acoustics panels and trying numerous placements for the subs and speakers. I even bought the MultiEq-X windows app for maximum tweaking. All the time checking results with REW of course. In the end I'm finally happy with the result (although the price of the setup is 6x the original...)

The thing is that when all is said and done, the only EQ I have left is what xt32 does automatically from 400Hz down and even then I suspect the only really audible problem is huge peak below 35-40Hz. :rolleyes:
Yeah it’s kind of funny. You embark on a project and suddenly your budget is 6x. It’s very hard to know up front what your needed expenditure is.

As long as you’re happy now.
 
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bodhi

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Yeah it’s kind of funny. You embark on a project and suddenly your budget is 6x. It’s very hard to know up front what you needed expenditure is.

As long as you’re happy now.
I'm happy with measurements and sq, there is not much to do other than move to a larger apartment... I might try the 8350s that I have on my desktop in place of R5s just see even smoother measurement and find out that I can't actually hear those 1-3dB dips and peaks and leave it at that.:p
 

srrxr71

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FWIW I found that putting in a high Q notch on that peak helps. It’s worth a try. Makes the bass tighter to me.
 

srrxr71

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I'm happy with measurements and sq, there is not much to do other than move to a larger apartment... I might try the 8350s that I have on my desktop in place of R5s just see even smoother measurement and find out that I can't actually hear those 1-3dB dips and peaks and leave it at that.:p
You’d be surprised. I used to play with eq and really just crank up things to hear differences. On this level of system however you can hear even 1dB if it is in the sensitive part of our hearing.
 
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Mr. Widget

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I agree with those who suggested an additional sub or two may be a good thing.

And no, you are definitely not crazy. I set up a lot of systems and rarely use the automatic room correction systems alone. When available I always give them a go, but then compare the sound with my own measurements and listening impressions. I often augment the "correction" or do my own fully manual room tuning.
 

Chuck Gerlach

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I don't see how is that crazy. Room correction didnt even exist 20yrs ago and I m still not having any room EQ today...
Actually the very first digital room correction product was being deployed in the early 90's - about 30 years ago. It wasn't successful long term because it was developed prior to the existence of powerful PC's so each unit was loaded with lots of very expensive Motorola DSP chips. And it had to be installed/calibrated by the company as the interface was not friendly (like bad DOS). The name of the company was Cambridge Signal Technologies, the product was called the SigTech - and I was the Marketing Director. Until the latest versions of Dirac and the Trinnov Optimizer, it was better than anything else around.

While I get that many don't like what a room EQ system does, both Dirac and the Trinnov Optimizer, calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing (NOT just running in auto mode), can provide results that few (not none) would disagree was an improvement over no calibration. Again, using the Trinnov Optimizer as an example, just running the Trinnov Wizard might get you 80% of what is possible. And why pay $18,500 for a processor and leave $3700 on the table?
 

srrxr71

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Actually the very first digital room correction product was being deployed in the early 90's - about 30 years ago. It wasn't successful long term because it was developed prior to the existence of powerful PC's so each unit was loaded with lots of very expensive Motorola DSP chips. And it had to be installed/calibrated by the company as the interface was not friendly (like bad DOS). The name of the company was Cambridge Signal Technologies, the product was called the SigTech - and I was the Marketing Director. Until the latest versions of Dirac and the Trinnov Optimizer, it was better than anything else around.

While I get that many don't like what a room EQ system does, both Dirac and the Trinnov Optimizer, calibrated by someone who knows what they are doing (NOT just running in auto mode), can provide results that few (not none) would disagree was an improvement over no calibration. Again, using the Trinnov Optimizer as an example, just running the Trinnov Wizard might get you 80% of what is possible. And why pay $18,500 for a processor and leave $3700 on the table?
So how would one find someone who would be able to optimize a Trinnov for example?
 

Holmz

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So how would one find someone who would be able to optimize a Trinnov for example?

1-800-mathew7:7 seakandyeshallfind.com
jesus-hands.jpg
 

dualazmak

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My recent post here would be of your reference; tuning of room acoustics (including furniture) and SP (sub-woofer and main SP) physical alignments should have higher priority than manipulating DSP XO/EQ".
 
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