Am I being pedantic or are they being intentionally misleading?

[thecity2]

SVS states

• 20Hz to 230Hz +/-3dB

Now correct me if I'm wrong but to me this spec is highly misleading. I think what they are claiming is that the level specifically at 20Hz and 230Hz are within +/- 3dB. But to me that is highly misleading of the actual desired performance because it is clearly not +/- 3dB *across* the entire band from 20Hz to 230Hz. It seems pretty clear that in the range of say 30-100 Hz which is precisely the range most people care about in a subwoofer, the level is much higher that it is at 20Hz or 230Hz for that matter. It looks to my eyes like there is maybe a 10dB dropoff just going from 30dB to 20dB. Furthermore the fact that they are only showing a peak dB level of around 92-93 dB is a bit suspect, although I assume that is driven by 1W? They don't actually give the sensitivity AFAICT, also a bit sus! What do you think? Am I crazy here?

 

[voodooless]

I suspect the spec is more about what can be expected in-room. But yeah, it doesn’t say that explicitly

 

[SuicideSquid]

+/-3 dB means a total swing of 6dB. Generally you'd have the line through the average spL and then go +/- from that line, but technically you can make that line anything you like.

Based on my read of that graph, you've probably got an output of around 87dB at 20Hz and 230Hz, peaking at 93dB around 100Hz, with the average around 92dB. Technically that is "+/-3dB" if you're using an average spL of 90dB, but it is misleading, because your actual average output is closer to 92dB making it +/-5dB from that point.

All that being said, if the graph is accurate and the sub can provide virtually dead flat output from 30Hz-100Hz, with a -6dB roll-off by 20Hz, that is exceptional performance.

 

[thecity2]

+/-3 dB means a total swing of 6dB. Generally you'd have the line through the average spL and then go +/- from that line, but technically you can make that line anything you like.

Based on my read of that graph, you've probably got an output of around 87dB at 20Hz and 230Hz, peaking at 93dB around 100Hz, with the average around 92dB. Technically that is "+/-3dB" if you're using an average spL of 90dB, but it is misleading, because your actual average output is closer to 92dB making it +/-5dB from that point.

All that being said, if the graph is accurate and the sub can provide virtually dead flat output from 30Hz-100Hz, with a -6dB roll-off by 20Hz, that is exceptional performance.

This looks like more like 10dB down. It's under 84dB at 20 Hz.

 

[voodooless]

All that being said, if the graph is accurate and the sub can provide virtually dead flat output from 30Hz-100Hz, with a -6dB roll-off by 20Hz, that is exceptional performance.

It’s pretty insane, almost 3 cm of excursion each way. You’ll get 97104dB max SPL at 20 Hz, 105111 dB at 30 Hz. That is very respectable for such a small device.

 

[SuicideSquid]

View attachment 523684
This looks like more like 10dB down. It's under 84dB at 20 Hz.

Or they just didn't line things up quite right. Move just a hair to the right (~22Hz) and you're around 87.

 

[thecity2]

Or they just didn't line things up quite right. Move just a hair to the right (~22Hz) and you're around 87.

I mean...that's not how this is supposed to work.

 

[Ropeburn]

All that being said, if the graph is accurate and the sub can provide virtually dead flat output from 30Hz-100Hz, with a -6dB roll-off by 20Hz, that is exceptional performance.

Especially from a 2x9" subwoofer that's a mere cubic foot and no more than 1000 moneys. Somehow I don't think volume will be a problem either.

SVS 3000 Micro R|Evolution | Compact Subwoofer with Deep & Musical Bass

Experience deep, accurate bass from a compact subwoofer. SVS 3000 Micro R|Evolution delivers stunning output and extension to 20Hz from dual 9-inch active drivers and 1,200 watt RMS Amplifier. All from a 11-inch enclosure.

www.svsound.com

Can I have two for Christmas please?

 

[levimax]

Luckily we don't have to believe all the marketing hype leading you to believe that something this small can actually create any meaningful output at 20 Hz. Nuyes tested a bunch of subs including the SVS 3000 Micro. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/post-1756733 The reality is, even under the VERY lenient distortion requirements of CEA-2010 this sub can barely get above the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz. which is ~78 dB (it does 83 dB). Something like this can be helpful for small speakers in a small rooms at close distances but it a shame the marketing makes people think they are getting something they are not.

 

[thecity2]

Luckily we don't have to believe all the marketing hype leading you to believe that something this small can actually create any meaningful output at 20 Hz. Nuyes tested a bunch of subs including the SVS 3000 Micro. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/post-1756733 The reality is, even under the VERY lenient distortion requirements of CEA-2010 this sub can barely get above the threshold of hearing at 20 Hz. which is ~78 dB (it does 83 dB). Something like this can be helpful for small speakers in a small rooms at close distances but it a shame the marketing makes people think they are getting something they are not.

Just to be clear, the data I posted at the top of the thread is supposed to be for the *new* SVS 3000 Micro that has dual 9" woofers (literally went on sale today on the SVS site). I assume the measurements are better than the dual 8" previous version, but probably still misleading imo.

 

[levimax]

Just to be clear, the data I posted at the top of the thread is supposed to be for the *new* SVS 3000 Micro that has dual 9" woofers (literally went on sale today on the SVS site). I assume the measurements are better than the dual 8" previous version, but probably still misleading imo.

I am sure it is a little better but physics and Hoffman's Iron Law are hard to work around unfortunately.

 

[Curvature]

under the VERY lenient distortion requirements of CEA-2010

For context, the requirements are for bursts, not continuous signals, and they are based on psychoacoustic work from the 1950s.

 

[KL....]

SVS states

• 20Hz to 230Hz +/-3dB

Now correct me if I'm wrong but to me this spec is highly misleading. I think what they are claiming is that the level specifically at 20Hz and 230Hz are within +/- 3dB. But to me that is highly misleading of the actual desired performance because it is clearly not +/- 3dB *across* the entire band from 20Hz to 230Hz. It seems pretty clear that in the range of say 30-100 Hz which is precisely the range most people care about in a subwoofer, the level is much higher that it is at 20Hz or 230Hz for that matter. It looks to my eyes like there is maybe a 10dB dropoff just going from 30dB to 20dB. Furthermore the fact that they are only showing a peak dB level of around 92-93 dB is a bit suspect, although I assume that is driven by 1W? They don't actually give the sensitivity AFAICT, also a bit sus! What do you think? Am I crazy here?
View attachment 523672

@thecity2, no need to be alarmed, better to be aware. This would appear to be the usual F10/LF figure quoted on ASR and marketing, where F10 indicates 10db down, in this case, at 20Hz. Think of it like nominal 8ohm speaker impedance, even though the minimum speaker impedance could be <3ohm.

Although, 20Hz to 230Hz +/-3dB suggests F3 at 20hz, doesn't it, and as you suggest can be considered as misleading unless they provide further information to clarify their specs.

 

[krabapple]

SVS states

• 20Hz to 230Hz +/-3dB

Now correct me if I'm wrong but to me this spec is highly misleading. I think what they are claiming is that the level specifically at 20Hz and 230Hz are within +/- 3dB. But to me that is highly misleading of the actual desired performance because it is clearly not +/- 3dB *across* the entire band from 20Hz to 230Hz. It seems pretty clear that in the range of say 30-100 Hz which is precisely the range most people care about in a subwoofer, the level is much higher that it is at 20Hz or 230Hz for that matter. It looks to my eyes like there is maybe a 10dB dropoff just going from 30dB to 20dB. Furthermore the fact that they are only showing a peak dB level of around 92-93 dB is a bit suspect, although I assume that is driven by 1W? They don't actually give the sensitivity AFAICT, also a bit sus! What do you think? Am I crazy here?

+/- 3dB means , where the response has risen or fallen (deviated from 'flat') by 3dB. Here it only does that at the low and high ends, and it's only 'minus' (typical of decent gear)

With a ~'flat' response at ~92 93 dB, it looks to me like the -3dB points (i.e, where the curve hits ~89 90 dB) are ~25 27 Hz and ~200 190 Hz. Close enough?

 

[kemmler3D]

You're not being pedantic or crazy, I think the discussion so far pretty much covers it. I'll just say that the tendency to flat out lie in specs for consumer audio is very strong.

Here at ASR we don't even look at products that fall into that category very often, but it's very common for portable speakers and such to claim impossible wattages and frequency ranges that are stretched a lot more than this.

Maybe SVS is quoting in-room performance. Maybe they are squinting and saying "close enough". What is also likely is they realize that average consumers have "20hz" in their minds as important, and also that most of those consumers don't really understand Hz or dB clearly or at all.

The unpleasant reality about marketing audio gear to the general public (as opposed to knowledgeable folks like the ones in this thread) is this: If you don't fudge your specs a little, the less honest brand that is cheaper and flagrantly lying about their specs will get the sale. I have never, ever seen or heard of any consumer audio brand getting in trouble with the government or Amazon or anyone else for lying about specs. So in situations where the brand does not expect their consumer to do proper research, they get away with a lot.

SVS is in a tough situation trying to market to savvy and not-savvy listeners at the same time, you end up with threads like this one.

 

[YouDontHaveEnoughBass]

I am sure it is a little better but physics and Hoffman's Iron Law are hard to work around unfortunately.

With smaller size you can trade off sensitivity or extension; they traded off a tonne of sensitivity then compensated with ludicrous excursion and power

 

[Torin Krell]

Sub designers juggle several parameters to optimize performance, and considerably compromising one parameter (in this case size) is very likely to significantly impact performance despite clever design (like integrated dual drivers) and significant adjustments in other design parameters to compensate. In the SVS line this is clearly evident since the SB-2000 Pro is cheaper yet more performant than the (new) 3000 Micro R Evolution since it doesn't have such a severe size restraint.

 

[Mort]

ludicrous excursion

What did they do to the excursion?

 

[Curvature]

I was curious and tried extracting the data from the image at the top.

 

[Daverz]

I was curious and tried extracting the data from the image at the top.

View attachment 553252

So it's more like +/- 5 dB and F10 = 20 Hz.