Alternative speakers to Wharfedale Linton (room issues)

[hex168]

Put the sofa on casters and move it when you have to do dishes. Also, dishwashers are overrated - can you still reach the sink?

 

[Alexei]

Grabbing a subwoofer and doing a higher than usual crossover for this speakers (e.g. 100Hz?) + placing the subwoofer wherever subwoofer crawling might achieve something or room modes are a superior force that will defeat this test?

Just as a last resort to try… Printer paper rolled up to form a tube that is the length of the short dimension of the paper. Works for me, extends my useable in-room bass to 27Hz but attenuates the boom freqs a fair bit. Unfortunately adds some response ripple but means I can turn bass up to flat without creating a constant earthquake.
The existing Linton ports are 2-piece (plastic outer flare feeding into internal cardboard tube with an aperiodic mesh at the inside end.
Insert the paper tubes so they stop at the joining ‘catch’ you’ll feel (about half the paper tube’s length). Further out and the effect will lower the tuning up to a point. If you roll the tube tight so it’s much smaller than port you can push in past the catch point and release to expand. If you have a tone generator phone or pc/tablet app that can feed your amp, you can adjust tube length to minimise woofer movement starting downwards from Linton std config 40Hz tuning.
None of this will probably help your room nulls, but it’s worth every shot before you have to spend money, just in case!

I think your idea of going with smaller speakers or soundbar + subw is a good one if you give up on the Lintons.
As you suggest, I believe you’re more likely to be able to place a single sub somewhere to get some satisfying bass at your MLP, like what the R spkr is doing for you at the moment. Smaller spkrs will likely still give you ‘punch’ and the sub can create deeper bass. Probably not quite audiophile listening, but who cares if it sounds good to you in the situation you’re stuck with.
I’ve usually had bass issues when not listening close to rear wall with small rooms and big speakers.

 

[corywong88]

View attachment 488045
Just as a last resort to try… Printer paper rolled up to form a tube that is the length of the short dimension of the paper. Works for me, extends my useable in-room bass to 27Hz but attenuates the boom freqs a fair bit. Unfortunately adds some response ripple but means I can turn bass up to flat without creating a constant earthquake.
The existing Linton ports are 2-piece (plastic outer flare feeding into internal cardboard tube with an aperiodic mesh at the inside end.
Insert the paper tubes so they stop at the joining ‘catch’ you’ll feel (about half the paper tube’s length). Further out and the effect will lower the tuning up to a point. If you roll the tube tight so it’s much smaller than port you can push in past the catch point and release to expand. If you have a tone generator phone or pc/tablet app that can feed your amp, you can adjust tube length to minimise woofer movement starting downwards from Linton std config 40Hz tuning.
None of this will probably help your room nulls, but it’s worth every shot before you have to spend money, just in case!

I think your idea of going with smaller speakers or soundbar + subw is a good one if you give up on the Lintons.
As you suggest, I believe you’re more likely to be able to place a single sub somewhere to get some satisfying bass at your MLP, like what the R spkr is doing for you at the moment. Smaller spkrs will likely still give you ‘punch’ and the sub can create deeper bass. Probably not quite audiophile listening, but who cares if it sounds good to you in the situation you’re stuck with.
I’ve usually had bass issues when not listening close to rear wall with small rooms and big speakers.

I am out for a week, but I will definitely try this as I am very curious. Shall I still face speaker to my ears (on-axis) or for this method is better if they are parallel to the wall?

Thanks.

 

[Alexei]

I run mine parallel to the wall, so slight toe-out, but it’s a matter of taste.
I believe aiming at your ears increases the upper treble compared to aiming straight ahead and therefore slightly off axis.

 

[Marc v E]

Hello,
Some time ago I opened a thread requesting support for a better AIO amplifier for my Lintons. Some fellows pointed that the issue might be the room or positioning. I was reading the forum yesterday and I saw some other member facing similar issues and also trying to fix them with a new amp.

His thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-linton-based-system-amplifier-upgrade.66449/
My thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...harfedale-linton-heritage.58188/#post-2141192

I can't do much in the room regarding sound treatment (rented, no holes on the walls, and not sure if I will stay here for more than 1 year) and the placement is limited (I can't move speakers that much).

So I was thinking if for my room, other speakers would be more suitable (KEF R3 + Subwoofer, something with front bass reflex, etc.). It's a 30 m2 (323 sqft) living room, and I am sitting 2,5m (8,2 feet away) from the speakers; sketch is attached. The amplifier that I have is a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 but I can replace it if the proper speaker is not a good match for it.



Appreciating all the help in advance.

I would move the tv stand + speakers to the wall where the table is standing now;
Turn the couch to face the speakers and move it a little closer;
move the table behind the couch to the spot where the tv stand and couch are now.

 

[Alexei]

Hey Corey, just wondering if you found an acceptable solution or if you’ve given up on the Lintons?

 

[funkera91]

Hey , I am also using Lintons for stereo listening nad for Movies . I did even tried 3 for LCR compared to Evo 4.4, EVO4.C.
Linton - Clear diaogue- super nice tmbre of the man and woman conversation , but lack of high freq effect.
EVO - Low bass,, very detailed, but dialogues anre sounding cheaper.

In general, I Love the Lintons 85, they are super nice speakers, but I have this problem with boomyness, they are just too boomy, they need to stay like 1 m atleast from the wall.

 

[Alexei]

Hey , I am also using Lintons for stereo listening nad for Movies . I did even tried 3 for LCR compared to Evo 4.4, EVO4.C.
Linton - Clear diaogue- super nice tmbre of the man and woman conversation , but lack of high freq effect.
EVO - Low bass,, very detailed, but dialogues anre sounding cheaper.

In general, I Love the Lintons 85, they are super nice speakers, but I have this problem with boomyness, they are just too boomy, they need to stay like 1 m atleast from the wall.

I have the same problem. If you haven’t already tried, block the bass ports with something like rolled up socks. They become more like smaller bookshelf spkrs and perceptually punchier due to rolling off of the bass response. They still go deep but don’t overwhelm the room as easily. You might feel robbed of bass initially but give it a day to see if your mind will ‘burn in’. You can always turn up the bass ctl a bit now instead of having to turn it down. Mine are 45cm from rear of spkr to front wall atm.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

ART may potentially help, due to its support/cancellation techniques... ie: NOT EQ...

Hence it can potentially overcome room modes/nodes such as a bass null - which is often intractable to other techniques

Come on. EQ can’t solve room nodes. No magic algorithms can solve long wavelength interactions with small rooms.

 

[dlaloum]

Come on. EQ can’t solve room nodes. No magic algorithms can solve long wavelength interactions with small rooms.

Physically moving the bass speaker affects node location - adjusting phase can also affect node location

Using multiple speakers at the node frequency in differing locations, can be used by varying both phase and amplitude to substantially damped nodes.

They are definitely amenable to smart processing.

But in a sense you are right, they are not affected by plain old amplitude EQ - no graphic equaliser, real or virtual will affect nodes.

But then ART is not EQ (although colloquially lumped in with EQ) - it is electronic room treatment - and it is bundled with Dirac Live, which provides EQ functionality.

 

[funkera91]

I have the same problem. If you haven’t already tried, block the bass ports with something like rolled up socks. They become more like smaller bookshelf spkrs and perceptually punchier due to rolling off of the bass response. They still go deep but don’t overwhelm the room as easily. You might feel robbed of bass initially but give it a day to see if your mind will ‘burn in’. You can always turn up the bass ctl a bit now instead of having to turn it down. Mine are 45cm from rear of spkr to front wall atm.

Thanks fir the idea, will try it out today.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Physically moving the bass speaker affects node location - adjusting phase can also affect node location

Using multiple speakers at the node frequency in differing locations, can be used by varying both phase and amplitude to substantially damped nodes.

They are definitely amenable to smart processing.

But in a sense you are right, they are not affected by plain old amplitude EQ - no graphic equaliser, real or virtual will affect nodes.

But then ART is not EQ (although colloquially lumped in with EQ) - it is electronic room treatment - and it is bundled with Dirac Live, which provides EQ functionality.

Not sure how ART works differently than EQ. Very confusing. Anecdotally, observe good results. I’ve given up on subs. I am simply not capable of proper integration. Wish I could. I wonder if ART could solve my frustration.

 

[dlaloum]

Not sure how ART works differently than EQ. Very confusing. Anecdotally, observe good results. I’ve given up on subs. I am simply not capable of proper integration. Wish I could. I wonder if ART could solve my frustration.

ART does not do EQ at all!!

EQ is left to Dirac Live - which integrates closely with ART...

ART focuses on providing multiple output (ie multiple speakers) to support each speaker, and through having low level (non perceptible) bolstering of each speaker by the other speakers, enabling it to control decay, in addition to phase/impulse.

So what it results in, is a low decay environment - the bass reproduced is basically the core signal with minimal overhang (as shown by the various ART waterfall charts as compared to other tuning systems waterfall charts - you can see in those that the decay for ART is very quick compared to others including Dirac's own DLBC - as a result some people perceive it as "less bass" (and in truth there is less acoustic energy in the room) - but what has been removed is the reverberant decay and not the primary signal - in fact due to the support the primary signal has the potential for increased amplitude & dynamic range, without overwhelming things.... much cleaner.

After ART provides the base processing for the rooms bass response, Dirac Live is used to provide actual EQ and set a Target curve for the "voicing" of the system. And some people(circa 60%) like the Harman curves with MORE BASS... others like a more neutral representation... like me... - this part of the process is true EQ, although Dirac Live also does phase alignement and impulse correction

I gave up on integrating subs years ago, when I ran electrostatics - but as soon as I get an ART capable platform, I am planning on trying it out - the reports are universally positive by those I trust, and specifically those who have shown through their feedback over the years to have similar preferences to mine...

 

[Ktacos]

Hey , I am also using Lintons for stereo listening nad for Movies . I did even tried 3 for LCR compared to Evo 4.4, EVO4.C.
Linton - Clear diaogue- super nice tmbre of the man and woman conversation , but lack of high freq effect.
EVO - Low bass,, very detailed, but dialogues anre sounding cheaper.

In general, I Love the Lintons 85, they are super nice speakers, but I have this problem with boomyness, they are just too boomy, they need to stay like 1 m atleast from the wall.

Simple shelf filter or a few peak filters would probably fix the boominess. This is what measurement mics and EQ are for. Honestly for any speaker problems below 500hz the solution is pretty much always some EQ if you can't treat or move things. Even if you can do those things you still need EQ.

Some comments on here on what EQ can and cannot do, but reducing boominess tends to be something it can do pretty well. I haven't been a in a room where I couldn't get excellent bass results with some positioning and EQ.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

ART does not do EQ at all!!

EQ is left to Dirac Live - which integrates closely with ART...

ART focuses on providing multiple output (ie multiple speakers) to support each speaker, and through having low level (non perceptible) bolstering of each speaker by the other speakers, enabling it to control decay, in addition to phase/impulse.

So what it results in, is a low decay environment - the bass reproduced is basically the core signal with minimal overhang (as shown by the various ART waterfall charts as compared to other tuning systems waterfall charts - you can see in those that the decay for ART is very quick compared to others including Dirac's own DLBC - as a result some people perceive it as "less bass" (and in truth there is less acoustic energy in the room) - but what has been removed is the reverberant decay and not the primary signal - in fact due to the support the primary signal has the potential for increased amplitude & dynamic range, without overwhelming things.... much cleaner.

After ART provides the base processing for the rooms bass response, Dirac Live is used to provide actual EQ and set a Target curve for the "voicing" of the system. And some people(circa 60%) like the Harman curves with MORE BASS... others like a more neutral representation... like me... - this part of the process is true EQ, although Dirac Live also does phase alignement and impulse correction

I gave up on integrating subs years ago, when I ran electrostatics - but as soon as I get an ART capable platform, I am planning on trying it out - the reports noare universally positive by those I trust, and specifically those who have shown through their feedback over the years to have similar preferences to mine...

Thank you

 

[corywong88]

Excuse me for being absent, but my work trip extended for 3 more weeks and I'm just back.

Put the sofa on casters and move it when you have to do dishes. Also, dishwashers are overrated - can you still reach the sink?

Agree, on the dishwashers one, but unfortunately still can't reach the sink. Can we agree that cooking is overrated too? That will make things easier.

View attachment 488045
Just as a last resort to try… Printer paper rolled up to form a tube that is the length of the short dimension of the paper. Works for me, extends my useable in-room bass to 27Hz but attenuates the boom freqs a fair bit. Unfortunately adds some response ripple but means I can turn bass up to flat without creating a constant earthquake.
The existing Linton ports are 2-piece (plastic outer flare feeding into internal cardboard tube with an aperiodic mesh at the inside end.
Insert the paper tubes so they stop at the joining ‘catch’ you’ll feel (about half the paper tube’s length). Further out and the effect will lower the tuning up to a point. If you roll the tube tight so it’s much smaller than port you can push in past the catch point and release to expand. If you have a tone generator phone or pc/tablet app that can feed your amp, you can adjust tube length to minimise woofer movement starting downwards from Linton std config 40Hz tuning.
None of this will probably help your room nulls, but it’s worth every shot before you have to spend money, just in case!

I think your idea of going with smaller speakers or soundbar + subw is a good one if you give up on the Lintons.
As you suggest, I believe you’re more likely to be able to place a single sub somewhere to get some satisfying bass at your MLP, like what the R spkr is doing for you at the moment. Smaller spkrs will likely still give you ‘punch’ and the sub can create deeper bass. Probably not quite audiophile listening, but who cares if it sounds good to you in the situation you’re stuck with.
I’ve usually had bass issues when not listening close to rear wall with small rooms and big speakers.

I tried this and did 15 min listening test but I couldn't feel any improvement. I want to repeat the test and take measurements (maybe also trying different lengths of paper rolls) so science can talk instead of my impressions.

I would move the tv stand + speakers to the wall where the table is standing now;
Turn the couch to face the speakers and move it a little closer;
move the table behind the couch to the spot where the tv stand and couch are now.

View attachment 488062

I think that's not feasible will (block windows), see a replica of my room attached.

Hey Corey, just wondering if you found an acceptable solution or if you’ve given up on the Lintons?

Not yet

 

[Marc v E]

Excuse me for being absent, but my work trip extended for 3 more weeks and I'm just back.

Agree, on the dishwashers one, but unfortunately still can't reach the sink. Can we agree that cooking is overrated too? That will make things easier.



I tried this and did 15 min listening test but I couldn't feel any improvement. I want to repeat the test and take measurements (maybe also trying different lengths of paper rolls) so science can talk instead of my impressions.


I think that's not feasible will (block windows), see a replica of my room attached.


Not yet

If the location of speakers and tv is more or less fixed, then there is only 1 solution I can think of.

High pass the lintons and use multiple subwoofers. The easiest way to do that is with an av receiver like the 3800 from denon.

I experienced some great results with a marantz avr and dbr 62 plus sub. Truely excellent.

 

[corywong88]

If the location of speakers and tv is more or less fixed, then there is only 1 solution I can think of.

High pass the lintons and use multiple subwoofers. The easiest way to do that is with an av receiver like the 3800 from denon.

I experienced some great results with a marantz avr and dbr 62 plus sub. Truely excellent.

I guess that based on the dip that I have, I should use a kind of high crossover frequency. I know that my starting "business case" is far from optimal and we are trying to add mitigations instead of fixing the issue (speaker placement/MLP), but in that case wouldn't be better to use speakers that doesn't go to low? e.g. bookshelfs

 

[dlaloum]

I guess that based on the dip that I have, I should use a kind of high crossover frequency. I know that my starting "business case" is far from optimal and we are trying to add mitigations instead of fixing the issue (speaker placement/MLP), but in that case wouldn't be better to use speakers that doesn't go to low? e.g. bookshelfs

Or use something like Dirac ART - which will use all your speakers, down to whatever frequency they can provide.... which would allow your Linton's to use their 40hz extension - effectively acting like subs for the 40Hz to 150Hz frequencies - and that would help resolve nulls and nodes in the room.

 

[Marc v E]

I guess that based on the dip that I have, I should use a kind of high crossover frequency. I know that my starting "business case" is far from optimal and we are trying to add mitigations instead of fixing the issue (speaker placement/MLP), but in that case wouldn't be better to use speakers that doesn't go to low? e.g. bookshelfs

The most honest answer I can give is that this goes beyond my knowledge.

I expect an avr which autocalibrates using a microphone to sort out which speaker plays at what frequency to achieve the best result.