Alternative speakers to Wharfedale Linton (room issues)

[corywong88]

Hello,
Some time ago I opened a thread requesting support for a better AIO amplifier for my Lintons. Some fellows pointed that the issue might be the room or positioning. I was reading the forum yesterday and I saw some other member facing similar issues and also trying to fix them with a new amp.

His thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-linton-based-system-amplifier-upgrade.66449/
My thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...harfedale-linton-heritage.58188/#post-2141192

I can't do much in the room regarding sound treatment (rented, no holes on the walls, and not sure if I will stay here for more than 1 year) and the placement is limited (I can't move speakers that much).

So I was thinking if for my room, other speakers would be more suitable (KEF R3 + Subwoofer, something with front bass reflex, etc.). It's a 30 m2 (323 sqft) living room, and I am sitting 2,5m (8,2 feet away) from the speakers; sketch is attached. The amplifier that I have is a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 but I can replace it if the proper speaker is not a good match for it.



Appreciating all the help in advance.

 

[raindance]

You don't say what the actual sonic problem is. If it's excessive bass just plug the ports until you move somewhere with better acoustics. Or add an EQ, which is the most sensible way to shape the system to the room.

 

[corywong88]

You don't say what the actual sonic problem is. If it's excessive bass just plug the ports until you move somewhere with better acoustics. Or add an EQ, which is the most sensible way to shape the system to the room.

I uploaded .mdat files to the other thread. I feel not clear sound and unclear bass (meaning it's blurred but I'm not hearing it). I tried different EQs + whatever RoomPerfect can do.

 

[raindance]

Why do you create two posts for the same topic?

 

[Alexei]

As a fellow Linton owner, I’ve had to deal with similar issues coming from smaller spkrs.
If you haven’t already, pls search web for Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) to get an idea of the mine-field of placement in smaller rooms.
You seem to be suffering a significant 10-15dB punch/thump 100Hz region suckout at MLP.

1. If you walk or take a chair and sit in kitchen as close to its wall as feasible, what does the bass sound like there? Move L to R to give you and idea of rear wall SBIR null and peak zones. Having the MLP half way in a smaller room’s depth is often a bass null zone. You may find it’s better with the couch a little further back. Ive read 2/3rds sometimes works better overall in smaller rooms.
2. At your current MLP, what does the bass sound like with only the R speaker playing, then only the left. My guess is R-only will be more satisfying. This gives you an idea of which spkr placement is leveraging room modes best at MLP.
2b. With both spkrs connected, reverse phase of one only. They will sound terrible, but at the MLP, do you suddenly hear certain bass freqs that seemed to be missing normally? This confirms the placement null, as it becomes a peak instead with phase reversed.
3. As a temporary troubleshooting measure, can you move the L speaker closer to the existing R’s position and listen. I’ve had to go very laterally asymmetric to get acceptable bass response at my distant (5m) MLP.
4. Don’t be afraid to try moving speakers back almost to rear wall. They will sound different but the result might be more palatable. SBIR guides often suggest as close to rear wall as possible for smaller rooms. Don’t worry about rear vents; low bass is omni so doesn’t care. You can always turn down overall bass if the relative balance of all bass frequencies is more realistic. Ideally pulling out more than 3ft is recommended but is usually impractical for non-dedicated listening rooms.
5. I suspect no amp changing will fix your issues. It’s all about shifting the placement and MLP for best compromise.

If the TV is not wall mounted, you’ll probably be happier moving everything over further R or left into a quite aesthetically-assymetric arrangement.

Best of luck as the end result can produce amazing deep and impactful bass from Lintons!

 

[dlaloum]

I would suggest that Dirac ART may provide a solution to your issues - quite a few room related issues can be overcome using ART... it brings us a capability that mere EQ systems cannot provide.

Of course that would require an ART capable platform, and then the purchase of the Dirac licences etc.... It is a non trivial exercise.

The Dirac licences are available on trial, so you can get a refund within two weeks... but you need to start out with a Dirac ART capable AVR/AVP ... which means Denon / Marantz (or StormAudio if you have a more ample budget)

 

[MarkS]

Having the MLP half way in a smaller room’s depth is often a bass null zone. You may find it’s better with the couch a little further back. Ive read 2/3rds sometimes works better overall in smaller rooms.

This. Move the couch back as far as you can. Your graphs in the other thread show a big bass null near 100 Hz. No EQ can cure this, which is why Room Perfect did not help. Dirac ART will not help. Different speakers or amps will not help.

 

[dlaloum]

This. Move the couch back as far as you can. Your graphs in the other thread show a big bass null near 100 Hz. No EQ can cure this, which is why Room Perfect did not help. Dirac ART will not help. Different speakers or amps will not help.

ART may potentially help, due to its support/cancellation techniques... ie: NOT EQ...

Hence it can potentially overcome room modes/nodes such as a bass null - which is often intractable to other techniques

 

[MarkS]

I do not see how that can possibly work (without adding speakers). Whatever is coming out of the existing speakers is bouncing off the wall and producing a cancelation at the listening position at around 100Hz. No change to what is coming out of those speakers can remove that cancelation (other than brute-force boosting).

Dirac says that

ART reduces lingering bass and room reverberations, the main causes of muddy or boomy sound that can blur the rest of the mix.

Key word is reduce. No claim is made of an ability to fill nulls.

 

[corywong88]

Why do you create two posts for the same topic?

The other topic/title was trying to get advisory for amplifiers, for that setup and on this one I request kind support for different speakers for the room (which as per other replies, might not be the solution) and the issue is the MLP. But at least having the proper title for the thread may support other member in the future.

As a fellow Linton owner, I’ve had to deal with similar issues coming from smaller spkrs.
If you haven’t already, pls search web for Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) to get an idea of the mine-field of placement in smaller rooms.
You seem to be suffering a significant 10-15dB punch/thump 100Hz region suckout at MLP.

1. If you walk or take a chair and sit in kitchen as close to its wall as feasible, what does the bass sound like there? Move L to R to give you and idea of rear wall SBIR null and peak zones. Having the MLP half way in a smaller room’s depth is often a bass null zone. You may find it’s better with the couch a little further back. Ive read 2/3rds sometimes works better overall in smaller rooms.
2. At your current MLP, what does the bass sound like with only the R speaker playing, then only the left. My guess is R-only will be more satisfying. This gives you an idea of which spkr placement is leveraging room modes best at MLP.
2b. With both spkrs connected, reverse phase of one only. They will sound terrible, but at the MLP, do you suddenly hear certain bass freqs that seemed to be missing normally? This confirms the placement null, as it becomes a peak instead with phase reversed.
3. As a temporary troubleshooting measure, can you move the L speaker closer to the existing R’s position and listen. I’ve had to go very laterally asymmetric to get acceptable bass response at my distant (5m) MLP.
4. Don’t be afraid to try moving speakers back almost to rear wall. They will sound different but the result might be more palatable. SBIR guides often suggest as close to rear wall as possible for smaller rooms. Don’t worry about rear vents; low bass is omni so doesn’t care. You can always turn down overall bass if the relative balance of all bass frequencies is more realistic. Ideally pulling out more than 3ft is recommended but is usually impractical for non-dedicated listening rooms.
5. I suspect no amp changing will fix your issues. It’s all about shifting the placement and MLP for best compromise.

If the TV is not wall mounted, you’ll probably be happier moving everything over further R or left into a quite aesthetically-assymetric arrangement.

Best of luck as the end result can produce amazing deep and impactful bass from Lintons!

1.- If I go closer to the wall, bass sounds better. The main issue here is that I can’t move further back the couch as I will not be able to open the dishwasher…
2/2b.- I will test it later and update
3.- Between the speakers there is the TV furniture and the TV itself. L speaker can be moved to the right (for testing) but I won’t be able to watch the TV I can however move everything a little bit to the left (couch/TV/L speaker) and play a little with the R speaker
4.- At this moment they are close to the back wall, I tried also around 2 feet away from the wall, and they are on axis to MLP

I can’t move the set to the right as the R speaker is already on a corner.

 

[corywong88]

I would suggest that Dirac ART may provide a solution to your issues - quite a few room related issues can be overcome using ART... it brings us a capability that mere EQ systems cannot provide.

Of course that would require an ART capable platform, and then the purchase of the Dirac licences etc.... It is a non trivial exercise.

The Dirac licences are available on trial, so you can get a refund within two weeks... but you need to start out with a Dirac ART capable AVR/AVP ... which means Denon / Marantz (or StormAudio if you have a more ample budget)

I can have access to a Marantz M1 with Dirac Live, but that’s not Dirac ART, right?

This. Move the couch back as far as you can. Your graphs in the other thread show a big bass null near 100 Hz. No EQ can cure this, which is why Room Perfect did not help. Dirac ART will not help. Different speakers or amps will not help.

As I said before, if couch goes further back, can’t use the dishwasher.

I do not see how that can possibly work (without adding speakers). Whatever is coming out of the existing speakers is bouncing off the wall and producing a cancelation at the listening position at around 100Hz. No change to what is coming out of those speakers can remove that cancelation (other than brute-force boosting).

Dirac says that

Key word is reduce. No claim is made of an ability to fill nulls.

Am I even thinking about selling the set, buying a soundbar with a subwoofer (just for a minimum of clear voices when watching TV) and if joining to the audiophile headphone world as I don’t see a solution here (I was hoping that maybe front bass reflex speakers will be a solution).

Thank you all!

 

[dlaloum]

I can have access to a Marantz M1 with Dirac Live, but that’s not Dirac ART, right?

Dirac Live (DL) is the EQ and impulse adjustment software.
Dirac Live - Bass Control (DLBC) - then builds on that as an optional extra, focused on tuning subs (commonly regarded as one of the best sub tuning options)
Dirac Live - ART (DL-ART, or just ART) builds on top of Dirac Live, or DLBC and does things no other software can do.

In a setup without subs, you can have DL+ART
In a setup with subs you need to have DLBC as part of the package

I currently run only DL - my hardware has no upgrade options to DLBC / ART.

And I checked the Dirac website, ART does not appear as an upgrade option for the Marantz M1

 

[Flaesh]

His thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-linton-based-system-amplifier-upgrade.66449/

He is already close to deciding to buy a microphone).
The room does not change even if you change cables, amplifiers and speakers.

 

[corywong88]

As a fellow Linton owner, I’ve had to deal with similar issues coming from smaller spkrs.
If you haven’t already, pls search web for Speaker Boundary Interference Response (SBIR) to get an idea of the mine-field of placement in smaller rooms.
You seem to be suffering a significant 10-15dB punch/thump 100Hz region suckout at MLP.

1. If you walk or take a chair and sit in kitchen as close to its wall as feasible, what does the bass sound like there? Move L to R to give you and idea of rear wall SBIR null and peak zones. Having the MLP half way in a smaller room’s depth is often a bass null zone. You may find it’s better with the couch a little further back. Ive read 2/3rds sometimes works better overall in smaller rooms.
2. At your current MLP, what does the bass sound like with only the R speaker playing, then only the left. My guess is R-only will be more satisfying. This gives you an idea of which spkr placement is leveraging room modes best at MLP.
2b. With both spkrs connected, reverse phase of one only. They will sound terrible, but at the MLP, do you suddenly hear certain bass freqs that seemed to be missing normally? This confirms the placement null, as it becomes a peak instead with phase reversed.
3. As a temporary troubleshooting measure, can you move the L speaker closer to the existing R’s position and listen. I’ve had to go very laterally asymmetric to get acceptable bass response at my distant (5m) MLP.
4. Don’t be afraid to try moving speakers back almost to rear wall. They will sound different but the result might be more palatable. SBIR guides often suggest as close to rear wall as possible for smaller rooms. Don’t worry about rear vents; low bass is omni so doesn’t care. You can always turn down overall bass if the relative balance of all bass frequencies is more realistic. Ideally pulling out more than 3ft is recommended but is usually impractical for non-dedicated listening rooms.
5. I suspect no amp changing will fix your issues. It’s all about shifting the placement and MLP for best compromise.

If the TV is not wall mounted, you’ll probably be happier moving everything over further R or left into a quite aesthetically-assymetric arrangement.

Best of luck as the end result can produce amazing deep and impactful bass from Lintons!

I had pending the tests.

1.- You are right, I listened music with my head on top of the dishwasher and the experience was much better. However, I’m unable to have the couch there as I eat food everyday so I need a kitchen

2.- Again, you are right, R is better

2b.- I can’t confirm what I really hear

I don’t know what to do, wall speakers (so I can gain some distance) + subwoofer? Headphones?

Thanks again to all the contributors.

 

[MarkS]

I don’t know what to do, wall speakers (so I can gain some distance)

If it's a bass null in the middle of the room (very likely), then distance to the speakers is not the issue.

+ subwoofer?

Most likely to help, especially if you can locate it near the couch. Try some room simulation software to play around with positioning.

Another idea: can you swap the TV and the table and put the speakers on the short wall? This may allow you to get the MLP out of the null.

Headphones?

Last resort, but sure! That will work.

 

[Flaesh]

I feel not clear sound and unclear bass

- this? The bass doesn't sum up as it should. L and R differ significantly (although it had be worse in other cases))

- the room is very small.

 

[terryforsythe]

In a setup with subs you need to have DLBC as part of the package

I use plain old Dirac Live (miniDSP) with a single subwoofer, and it works well. Dirac Live Bass Control provides additional features, but I think its strength comes in with systems that have multiple subwoofers.

 

[Alexei]

Sorry you aren’t having satisfactory results so far.
Headphones are certainly a great room-modes-free solution, if you don’t mind their tethering restrictions.

Since you’ve got nothing to lose at this stage, can you try the Lintons off the stands, on the floor, close as possible to the back wall and each other on either side of the TV/entertainment unit?
Normally, I’d say NOooo to on-floor, but the added boundary boost in your case may ‘just’ help you enough. You have to judge if you can tolerate the change in treble characteristics from being off the vertical axis sweet spot. Vocals may sound boxier too.

Keeping the spkrs close as possible may change the bass null point’s lateral position for some bass freqs. May be better at your MLP as a result.
If there’s some sense of it being closer to acceptable for you, then start inching the spkrs towards you away from rear wall to see where you regain deeper bass and less lower freq colouration to taste.

I run mine lower than the dedicated stands for reasons to do with UST projector’s
placement and spkr height shadowing the light path. Not perfect but works OK for me.
Good luck, I hope you’re not forced to go on a spending spree to find a workable outcome.

 

[corywong88]

Sorry you aren’t having satisfactory results so far.
Headphones are certainly a great room-modes-free solution, if you don’t mind their tethering restrictions.

Since you’ve got nothing to lose at this stage, can you try the Lintons off the stands, on the floor, close as possible to the back wall and each other on either side of the TV/entertainment unit?
Normally, I’d say NOooo to on-floor, but the added boundary boost in your case may ‘just’ help you enough. You have to judge if you can tolerate the change in treble characteristics from being off the vertical axis sweet spot. Vocals may sound boxier too.

Keeping the spkrs close as possible may change the bass null point’s lateral position for some bass freqs. May be better at your MLP as a result.
If there’s some sense of it being closer to acceptable for you, then start inching the spkrs towards you away from rear wall to see where you regain deeper bass and less lower freq colouration to taste.

I run mine lower than the dedicated stands for reasons to do with UST projector’s
placement and spkr height shadowing the light path. Not perfect but works OK for me.
Good luck, I hope you’re not forced to go on a spending spree to find a workable outcome.

I tried and the bass moved from inexistent to present (but more rumble than being something that I listened).

I am curious about how smaller speakers would behave (just for fun, as this test was also something I did for the fun…)

 

[corywong88]

Grabbing a subwoofer and doing a higher than usual crossover for this speakers (e.g. 100Hz?) + placing the subwoofer wherever subwoofer crawling might achieve something or room modes are a superior force that will defeat this test?