All amplifiers do not sound the same

[LTig]

Interesting, I didn’t realize that. In my specific case, 110 dB peaks from a speaker with 88 dB/2.83 V @ 1 m sensitivity (Yamaha NS-5000), 3-4 meters listening distance would require 1425 watts according to ChatGPT 4o. Yikes!

Not really. In a room the loss is rather 3 dB per doubling of idistance, and there are 2 speakers playing. 4m distance with 2 speakers then means 110dB + 2*3dB (distance) -3dB (2 speakers) = 113 dB per speaker. This is 25 dB above 1W hence roughly around 360W.

 

[Mart68]

Nah... they haven't/weren't, an old wives tale.


JSmith

All about the cult of the designer. They tell their punters what they want to hear, that their amps are 'special'.

Otherwise, why pick them over the hundreds of other options on the market? Many of which are cheaper.

 

[YSDR]

sibilance around 6khz

Why exactly around 6 kHz, other than that's the range of sibilance? What's wrong with amps around 6 kHz?

 

[BeeKay]

All about the cult of the designer. They tell their punters what they want to hear, that their amps are 'special'.

There certainly was a time when Arny Nudell and Nelson Pass were among the top designers. Long gone. Same for their designs.

 

[obsessive9119]

Not really. In a room the loss is rather 3 dB per doubling of idistance, and there are 2 speakers playing. 4m distance with 2 speakers then means 110dB + 2*3dB (distance) -3dB (2 speakers) = 113 dB per speaker. This is 25 dB above 1W hence roughly around 360W.

According to https://boomspeaker.com/amplifier-power-required-calculator/, it's more 2500W!

 

[Mart68]

Why exactly around 6 kHz, other than that's the range of sibilance? What's wrong with amps around 6 kHz?

I've noticed that there seems to be a very small minority of people who are plagued by sibilance, regardless of the equipment used, when it's never been a bother to anyone else.

I wonder if it is not created at least partly in the mind, possibly triggered by some real aspect of the sound, but only for those people, the rest of us don't perceive it as sibilance?

 

[Mart68]

There certainly was a time when Arny Nudell and Nelson Pass were among the top designers. Long gone. Same for their designs.

But what does that even mean, 'top designers'? There's hundreds of 'notionally perfect' amplifiers on the market. Even cheap 1980s Sanyos that were 'designed' only in respect to the layout of the controls and the colour scheme. Just a standard amplifier circuit in a box.

Really the only thing that can separate amplifiers is their ability to maintain voltage into a reactive load, and that's not any sort of mystery. It just depends on how much budget was available since stiff power supplies cost money,

 

[TLEDDY]

Perhaps try a “NullTest”-

‘The Carver Challenge famously used null testing to compare a budget Carver amplifier with a high-end reference amp. After careful adjustment, the null signal between the two was so low (around -70dB) that listeners could not distinguish between them in blind tests, demonstrating the power of the null test to reveal audible differences—or the lack thereof.”

Essentially, if the amp designs being compared are both “a straight wire with gain”, then, see above.

Tillman

 

[Mart68]

I don't think the Carver Challenge involved a blind test. The panel listened sighted with the two amps and judged them to be indistinguishable. At least in the accounts I have read.

 

[TLEDDY]

I don't think the Carver Challenge involved a blind test. The panel listened sighted with the two amps and judged them to be indistinguishable. At least in the accounts I have read.

The following is from a search engine; it reflects what I have read over the years regarding null testing - I do not take credit for any originality, simply methodology to determine whether amplifiers produce the same output.

This null residual can be analyzed in several ways:

• Quantitative Measurement: The average level (in volts or dB) of the null signal can be measured with a sensitive voltmeter or oscilloscope. The lower the residual, the more similar the devices are. For example, a deep null (very low residual) indicates that the devices are nearly indistinguishable in terms of audio performance.

• Spectral Analysis: The frequency content of the null residual can be examined using FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) analysis to identify specific types of distortion or frequency-dependent errors.

• Subjective Listening: The null residual can be amplified and listened to directly. This allows subjective evaluation of the audible artifacts, revealing what kinds of errors or distortions are present.

The null test is highly sensitive—it can reveal differences that are far below the threshold of typical audio measurements, sometimes down to -110 dB or lower. If the null is complete (silence), the two devices are functionally identical for all practical purposes. If there is a residual, its level and content provide a direct window into the errors or differences between the devices.

Tillman

 

[Snarfie]

Self medicating is rarely a optimal solution, doing so using HiFi equipment is a especially erroneous pursuit.

I'd try Vulcan meditation techniques if I were you , I sense one might be going through a pon farr of sorts.

It's a amp Jim but not as we know it.

 

[Mnyb]

I've noticed that there seems to be a very small minority of people who are plagued by sibilance, regardless of the equipment used, when it's never been a bother to anyone else.

I wonder if it is not created at least partly in the mind, possibly triggered by some real aspect of the sound, but only for those people, the rest of us don't perceive it as sibilance?

Speakers and bad recordings , B&W perhaps "it cant be my speakers lets try another amp"

 

[Sokel]

Speakers and bad recordings , B&W perhaps "it cant be my speakers lets try another amp"

As one of these people I can state in any possible way that's only very few recordings that bother.
The main reason is playback chain and room, with speakers being the dominant cause (could very well be a load dependent amp as well,etc )

Even the slightest rise at 4kHz to 6kHz does the trick and new B&W is amongst these along with a bunch of studio monitors.
But it's not only the 4-6kHz that does it, it's more a combination of that along with thin midbass usually.

 

[Mnyb]

As one of these people I can state in any possible way that's only very few recordings that bother.
The main reason is playback chain and room, with speakers being the dominant cause.

Even the slightest rise at 4kHz to 6kHz does the trick and new B&W is amongst these along with a bunch of studio monitors.
But it's not only the 4-6kHz that does it, it's more a combination of that along with thin midbass usually.

your right also the room My old meridian DS5200 always sounded somewhat sibilant , but i had that down to bad acoustical performance of that speaker a more modern speaker would handle the room better .

 

[Sokel]

your right also the room My old meridian DS5200 always sounded somewhat sibilant , but i had that down to bad acoustical performance of that speaker a more modern speaker would handle the room better .

I'll say it again when it comes to recordings:
The person who invented de-esser is amongst my heroes

 

[Scytales]

https://geocities.restorativland.org/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/pwint1.txt

Peter Walker: An amplifier should, within its limits of voltage and rate of change of voltage,
(which is slew rate limiting) if you keep within those two it should be very much
better than any program material. These are the things that are measured at .01
per cent or .05 per cent. But what is listened to is usually a program with 2 or 3
per cent distortion in the first place. That's the least you can get on records,
tapes, and such things. Listening tests are usually not done in this region of .01
percent distortion. I'm quite convinced within that range the amplifier is just as
perfect as you like to make it. It's quite possible to put 50 amplifiers in cascade,
each one into a load, potted down into the next one, and to listen to the 50th one
or to listen to the first one, and the sound will be virtually the same. So I think you
can make an amplifier just as good as you like, and no more different than a
piece of wire. But where they vary, when these tests are done, are a whole lot of
areas. To start with, you can compare one amplifier with a bass cut-off of 20 Hz
and another one that goes right down to DC. If you've got a program with a bit of
fluffing going on at 5 Hz or so, the speaker cone in one case will be moving, and
in the other case it won't be moving, so the sound from the speaker will be
different. This isn't really a condemnation of the amplifier, it's that they shouldn't
have this 5 Hz stuff there in the first place. So if you compare an amplifier with a
straight wire, you've really got to make the straight wire have the same
bandwidth as the amplifier, and the same terminating impedance as the
amplifier. Once you do all these things, then the amps will be just as good as the
straight wire. The peripheral effects are what get people into trouble. You can
see why you find these differences in amplifiers. You can always find them. If
people test two amplifiers and say, "These sound different," there's no magic in
it. Spend two days, maybe a whole week in the lab, and you find out exactly why
they're different and you can write the whole thing down in purely practical,
physical terms. This is why these two sound different, and the cause is usually
peripheral effects. It is not really a case of good or bad amplifiers, it's that the
termination impedances are wrong, or something of that sort.

Thank you for the link !

A very educating interview of one of the legendary colossus of Hi-fi.

I wholeheartedly invite everyone to read it.

 

[Mart68]

Speakers and bad recordings , B&W perhaps "it cant be my speakers lets try another amp"

Maybe, but when I think how many different speakers I've had over the years (including B&W), at least 10 different rooms and god knows how many turntables, amps, cd players, tape decks. And never been bothered by sibilance. And yet some people find it a big issue that changing any of the equipment fails to cure. They blame the recordings, but other people don't perceive a sibilance issue with those same recordings,

Isn't tinnitus created by the brain? Could perception of sibilance be similar? (I'm speculating, obviously).

 

[Sokel]

Maybe, but when I think how many different speakers I've had over the years (including B&W), at least 10 different rooms and god knows how many turntables, amps, cd players, tape decks. And never been bothered by sibilance. And yet some people find it a big issue that changing any of the equipment fails to cure. They blame the recordings, but other people don't perceive a sibilance issue with those same recordings,

Isn't tinnitus created by the brain? Could perception of sibilance be similar? (I'm speculating, obviously).

As this was observed very early and the early versions of de-esser go back to 1939, it seems to be a broad issue.
I have talked to medical doctors about it, it's not considered a condition, just a pronounced sensitivity similar with every other of our senses.

For example 30° C is hot for some people but not for all.

 

[Koeitje]

Maybe, but when I think how many different speakers I've had over the years (including B&W), at least 10 different rooms and god knows how many turntables, amps, cd players, tape decks. And never been bothered by sibilance. And yet some people find it a big issue that changing any of the equipment fails to cure. They blame the recordings, but other people don't perceive a sibilance issue with those same recordings,

Isn't tinnitus created by the brain? Could perception of sibilance be similar? (I'm speculating, obviously).

It really depends on the speaker, the PMC Twenty.22's I had were definitely sibilant. Based on Amir's review of the Twenty.21 (same tweeter as the 22, just a smaller woofer) I'd say that's not surprising. Never had electronics cause it though.

 

[Mart68]

As this was observed very early and the early versions of de-esser go back to 1939, it seems to be a broad issue.
I have talked to medical doctors about it, it's not considered a condition, just a pronounced sensitivity similar with every other of our senses.

For example 30° C is hot for some people but not for all.

So it is a mechanical issue then, not psychological? Fair enough.

Not sure temperature is comparable since we adapt to that. When I worked in cold storage I never felt cold in winter but summer was too warm for me. When I left that job I soon adapted back.